I think this is a golden opportunity to express what I feel are Some important characteristics, and parameters to be carefully considered when producing 'Epic Violins'

(I figure, better said before they are produced, rather than after).

So, here a little list [8-)]

'Epic Violins' should be:

Warm, Expressive, lush, flexible, beautiful timbre, smooth sustain and release portions for legato, and expressivo articulations, dynamic, soft/mellow sounding when needed , and aggressive sounding when that is called for, nice and accurate bowing attacks captured, flexibility of increasing, or decreasing the "Scratch sound of the bowing action" (i.e. more bow sound or less bow sound) maybe this can be achieve by using the micing proximity effect, to emphasize more or less bow sound, which can be controlled via cross-fading controllers within the Vienna Instrument), many articulations, for fast, and for slow string lines, sufficient velocity layers, Sweet singing timbre (NOT rigid, cold, harsh) Please !

The mic proximity effect/ mic placement and type of mics used, is a big factor, (experimenting here is a key factor) and I would say critical to achieve the right balance between musical and non musical strings when triggered back as samples, and please don't forget the Playability factor. (I am sure this is nothing new to the VSL recording engineers, but "Experimenting" teaches us many new things we did not know, it is a very important task !)

I would strongly stress : Timbre, Timbre, Timbre. Violins are all about great sounding timbre... No great timbre, No great violin sound, simple as that.

There is a fine line between capturing that magical timbre of the violins, or not capturing it. I find great violin timbre is the missing link between real and sampled violins.

A tough instrument to re-produce in sample libraries, I know, but it's all about the challenge, isn't it ?

Please don't rush this project, rushing it, will simply ruin it. Please give it enough time, lots of tender care, and attention to detail. It's Worth every second IMHO.

This is not 'Bonus Material', this is 'Essential Material' that was missing for a long time.

I hope you have lots of fun producing 'Epic Violins' they will serve us all "Epically"

[:D]

An Epic Step up for the Vienna Strings.

Thanks for listening.

Very nice idea, thanks

BTW, what's new in the ORCHESTRAL STRINGS I and ORCHESTRAL STRINGS II ?
Are they some new articulation like piano performance legato ?
For epic strings, as you have "only" 3 days, I would like (among many others) some really cool effects, like:
• trille or tremolos glissandi up to the end of the strings, let say on 24 start notes.
free improvisation (yes, they can do that, I conducted some string orchestra and they did it very well):
• Just give hem a range, like C4 to F4, and they slide pp randomly from one point to another.
• Short hard very high pitched and agressive attack fff not really precise, that make a cool effect for intense suspense movies.
• untuned notes, they play each note but with an altered finger position that they choose

and so on…

That would be fantastic

Whatever you record, we'll be very happy

@Christian Marcussen said:

Ok, too bad - but expected.
Tough choice. I say we should focus on sustains in multiple velocities. For these warm, romantic strings we would really need to be able to do crossfaded dynamics.

That is really preferable, as well as crossfading repetitions (i guess repetitions are not as complicated as legatos). I'm sure, if you mix such strings with existing performance legatos (Pro, Chamber), the result will be satisfying.

@muziksculp said:

I think this is a golden opportunity to express what I feel are Some important characteristics, and parameters to be carefully considered when producing 'Epic Violins'

(I figure, better said before they are produced, rather than after).

So, here a little list [8-)]

'Epic Violins' should be:

Warm, Expressive, lush, flexible, beautiful timbre, smooth sustain and release portions for legato, and expressivo articulations, dynamic, soft/mellow sounding when needed , and aggressive sounding when that is called for, nice and accurate bowing attacks captured, flexibility of increasing, or decreasing the "Scratch sound of the bowing action" (i.e. more bow sound or less bow sound) maybe this can be achieve by using the micing proximity effect, to emphasize more or less bow sound, which can be controlled via cross-fading controllers within the Vienna Instrument), many articulations, for fast, and for slow string lines, sufficient velocity layers, Sweet singing timbre (NOT rigid, cold, harsh) Please !

The mic proximity effect/ mic placement and type of mics used, is a big factor, (experimenting here is a key factor) and I would say critical to achieve the right balance between musical and non musical strings when triggered back as samples, and please don't forget the Playability factor. (I am sure this is nothing new to the VSL recording engineers, but "Experimenting" teaches us many new things we did not know, it is a very important task !)

I would strongly stress : Timbre, Timbre, Timbre. Violins are all about great sounding timbre... No great timbre, No great violin sound, simple as that.

There is a fine line between capturing that magical timbre of the violins, or not capturing it. I find great violin timbre is the missing link between real and sampled violins.

A tough instrument to re-produce in sample libraries, I know, but it's all about the challenge, isn't it ?

Please don't rush this project, rushing it, will simply ruin it. Please give it enough time, lots of tender care, and attention to detail. It's Worth every second IMHO.

This is not 'Bonus Material', this is 'Essential Material' that was missing for a long time.

I hope you have lots of fun producing 'Epic Violins' they will serve us all "Epically"

[:D]

An Epic Step up for the Vienna Strings.

Thanks for listening.

Well said.


Frankly Herb - when I first heard of the SC coming out THIS is what I was expecting (and willing to pay for - for the RIGHT thing). I am a little disspointed that is will be many months before something like this is in my arsesonal (and that it is considered 'bonus').

Personnally I say put all other 'extra horn, perc instruments on the back burner and get this done. Without a usuable upper range violin section - there is a huge whole in our mock-ups.

Again - from what you are reading here (for every 'one' person posting probably 20 would like to) - your customer base is begging for this product as well. And from what I read on many posts - willing to pay for it.

Please take the time to do this correctly and like I said - I can do without the latest rare instrument (inclusive of 20,000 samples) just to finally get a string section that I can use without hours and hours of tweaking, mixing, tucking, etc.

Thanks Herb for asking your customer base for advice - We will give you our honest evaluation.


Please believe me when I say I am in no way even close to John Barry's level but here is a cue I did last year using VSL (Director loves John Barry). What I personnally would like to see is the sound I got on the violins at :38 BUT 2-3 octaves higher.

For a later reprise of this theme I had to do this but it just didn't come off (had to use FH/Clarinets.)

Even in this example I wish I didn't have to bury the violins behind the clarinet and boy's choir.




http://www.robelliottmusic.com/mp3s/Religious/Until%20Forever.mp3">http://www.robelliottmusic.com/mp3s/Religious/Until%20Forever.mp3


Rob

what do the first edition users get?

@Rob Elliott said:

Frankly Herb - when I first heard of the SC coming out THIS is what I was expecting (and willing to pay for - for the RIGHT thing). I am a little disspointed that is will be many months before something like this is in my arsesonal (and that it is considered 'bonus').

Personnally I say put all other 'extra horn, perc instruments on the back burner and get this done. Without a usuable upper range violin section - there is a huge whole in our mock-ups.
Rob

I agree with this. Most of what can be construed as orchestral writing is 99% strings - more or less. Like I mentioned before - 3 days and 6 sessions seems it maybe a little short.

This could be a must have library if it works out.

Well, I don't know what makes a perfect sound, but I do know that when I listen to a symphony orchestra play slow string passages, live or on CD, the notes do not sound as perfectly in unison as we are a custom to on VSL, and you could pick out individual vibratos here and there, so sweet to hear them, and to me that gives much warmth to the sound. All I know is that my ears don't lie to me. So as long as warmth is there, I'm in.

BTW, this is something I have been heavily preaching in the past. I'm extremely surprised to see a few posters comments...

@Guy said:

Well, I don't know what makes a perfect sound, but I do know that when I listen to a symphony orchestra play slow string passages, live or on CD, the notes do not sound as perfectly in unison as we are a custom to on VSL, and you could pick out individual vibratos here and there, so sweet to hear them, and to me that gives much warmth to the sound. All I know is that my ears don't lie to me. So as long as warmth is there, I'm in.

BTW, this is something I have been heavily preaching in the past. I'm extremely surprised to see a few posters comments...

KEEP PREACHING BROTHER!!!!!! [[;)]]

@muziksculp said:

Hi Herb,
Yes ! This is a wonderful [I] I think we are all in need for additional strings, 'Epic Violins' will be a great addition, maybe'Epic Celli' will follow them... [[;)]]

I don't own the Pro Edition Strings, but own some of the Horizon series titles, I will instantly buy "Epic Violins", this is a no brainer for me, highly needed !
Thanks.

there is nothing to add to this! where can we preorder it [:D] ?

Herb,

If this is recorded between January and February, when do you think it will be released?

@Another User said:

If this is recorded between January and February, when do you think it will be released?

One months after recording probably. (for download)

best
Herb

It just struck me - Herb and company are some pretty smart fellows. They wouldn't walk away from such 'commercial potential' as this library would afford (reason for not doing this until now).

It could be simply a matter of 'how to get that sound'. Don't you think 'someone' would have released it by now - if it was even possible???

A recent string library release (from a competitor to remain nameless) was so awful that my old JV strings could put it to shame (harsh and brittle come to mind - over the whole range). These people wouldn't spend 50K to do that on purpose. It must just be hard or near impossible to get this silky, warm sound from live section to sample library.

What's up with that? I know that violins have almost limitless articulations - variations, tunings, vibrato depth differences, etc - but why hasn't this sound been capture to date?

Any ideas from our resident geniuses (and I mean that seriously) - perhaps there will be a clue for VSL to ponder - while preparing and recording it.


Rob

Rob:

Really good point. Even before jumping into this world of sample orchestras I had often wondered about that. I hadn't thought it through the way you just did though. It must be very difficult or someone would, at least, have given it really good try. No one is recording bad samples on purpose. I'd love to hear what others think about how it might be done. I certainly don't know the answer.

Be Well,

Poppa

BTW: How do you guys make the quotes of others appear in the little boxes [*-)]:

There's no real secret to it.

I've been doing live string sessions since the early 80s and the formula is very simple:

1 Have enough players (i.e., don't expect "JFK" with 14 violins! [;)])

2 Don't put the mics to close

After that, it's all in the players themselves.

Looking closer...
Remember also that in actually playing a soaring, beautiful line, the violins are not in any steady state...they are constantly changing between more and less vibrato depending on the phrase, whether the phrase pauses briefly, etc. Being able to bring in the vibrato via MODW, or, possibly using the new VSL's detection engine, when a phrase pauses briefly(or not so briefly) automatically would help immensely.

Nothing is static with live players, so far, that's the biggest difference between sampled and real. Varying dynamics, and vibrato, entering and leaving at natural moments.

TH

@Another User said:

BTW: How do you guys make the quotes of others appear in the little boxes

If you want to quote a thread use the button in the right, top corner of the post you want to quote. The button says : "Quote" [:D]

VSL will get it right is my bet.

@PoppaJOL said:

Rob:

Really good point. Even before jumping into this world of sample orchestras I had often wondered about that. I hadn't thought it through the way you just did though. It must be very difficult or someone would, at least, have given it really good try. No one is recording bad samples on purpose. I'd love to hear what others think about how it might be done. I certainly don't know the answer.

Be Well,

Poppa

BTW: How do you guys make the quotes of others appear in the little boxes [*-)]:

Easy - just hit the little 'quote' button on the upper right hand corner. Enter your new post BELOW the last 'quote' word. You'll see once you do it once. Hope it helps.


Rob

@tom@aerovons.com said:

There's no real secret to it.

I've been doing live string sessions since the early 80s and the formula is very simple:

1 Have enough players (i.e., don't expect "JFK" with 14 violins! [;)])

2 Don't put the mics to close

After that, it's all in the players themselves.

Looking closer...
Remember also that in actually playing a soaring, beautiful line, the violins are not in any steady state...they are constantly changing between more and less vibrato depending on the phrase, whether the phrase pauses briefly, etc. Being able to bring in the vibrato via MODW, or, possibly using the new VSL's detection engine, when a phrase pauses briefly(or not so briefly) automatically would help immensely.

Nothing is static with live players, so far, that's the biggest difference between sampled and real. Varying dynamics, and vibrato, entering and leaving at natural moments.

TH

Good points Tom - especially #2 (I still think Epic Horns micing was 'far' away - relatively speaking.)

BUT, you record a section in the studio and you have ONE LARGE SAMPLE [:)] - in other words you don't have to worry about piecemealing it together so it sounds 'human' - naturally performed with all the swells and deeper, shallower vibratos, etc.

Could most of the problem just simply be from recording to programming (at VSL or any other developer)?

Rob

@Another User said:

BTW: How do you guys make the quotes of others appear in the little boxes

If you want to quote a thread use the button in the right, top corner of the post you want to quote. The button says : "Quote" [:D]

Christian and Rob:

Got it! Thanks.

Poppa

I think strings are very problematic.

I think VSL has done some things so well that using a live player instead might sound *different* but not necessarily *better.* That's how well I feel they done some things like the flutes, legato clarinet, and mp dynamic french horn legatos. Just scary. Staccato bassoons, that kind of thing. Amazing and jawdropping.

Strings have all the same needs, but for whatever reason, they just seem to be a problem for sampling. I think we are much closer with strings than we will EVER be with say, sax, which just seems to refuse to be sampled[;)]

But I find the patchwork approach currently needed to do convincing string phrases exhausting, and at best, pretty good re the results. Not mind blowing. Just good. And that's *at times.*

Also I find, as I'm sure we all have up here, that it depends so much on the song. I've done things with VSL/QLSO that are really impressive sounding. And I've used all the same skill and all the same samples on another song, and it sounded merely OK. Sometimes worse than OK. So it so SONG dependent....PHRASE dependent, DYNAMIC dependent. Strings seem to need so much baby sitting as opposed to just playing a beautiful legato flute line or the like.

I do think VSL is on the right track, and that much could have been solved by what we are now all suggesting up here. No one else has nailed it yet, for whatever reasons. Here's hoping Herb and the gang spend more than 3 days. I'm sure we'd all find a way to pay for truly EPIC STRINGS.

TH