Thinking some more about it-- I think 2 dynamic levels of performance instruments would be necessary (or at least very desirable) to create the expression necessary for the romantic sound. Please consider more sessions devoted to this concept. Even if all the results are not "free."

--Jay

Herb,

I have the complete orchestral package 1st edition (and am starting in on the VI instruments right away.) Does this String offer apply to me in any way? Happy to pay any difference.

Regarding suggestions I agree with William's mp-mf perf-leg idea and your large section idea - both are badly needed

I am also not eligible for this offer, but if the 'romantic' sound that is being discussed here is achieved for the violins, I hope that it will be reproduced for the rest of the sections. This always was yet another strength of VSL - no such thing as a 'less important' instrument or section. [H]

(some of the other libraries out there have some fine violins, but the lower strings are real dogs sound wise, and skimpy on the articulations...)

Just my two cents:

Important for realistic productions would also be having sections that are smaller as well. that's where I agree to the idea of a first and 2nd violin section. Cause doubling voices should not result in having 22 players sounding. It should rather be f.ex. 5 and 6 players making the sound of 11 players or so.
i cannot describe the sound I would wish to get than referring to the sounds of the "lyrical vibrato strings" of EWQL. That sound is missing!¨To have that articulation/playing style together with smooth legatos (such as in the chamber strings) and dynamic blending (crossfades) would be a good choice to start with I guess.

I think Herb's offer is a real chance to get where pro's want to be soundwise!

@JBacal said:

Please consider more sessions devoted to this concept. Even if all the results are not "free."

Oh, yeah...in case my previous post was not clear about this: Of course I also meant that a possible complete future Epic Violins instrument wouldn't be free, but just this first "bonus" material for some select users.

Like I said before, I'm confident many would pay full price for a nice complete Epic Violins instrument.

R

Defenately...

I think this is a golden opportunity to express what I feel are Some important characteristics, and parameters to be carefully considered when producing 'Epic Violins'

(I figure, better said before they are produced, rather than after).

So, here a little list [8-)]

'Epic Violins' should be:

Warm, Expressive, lush, flexible, beautiful timbre, smooth sustain and release portions for legato, and expressivo articulations, dynamic, soft/mellow sounding when needed , and aggressive sounding when that is called for, nice and accurate bowing attacks captured, flexibility of increasing, or decreasing the "Scratch sound of the bowing action" (i.e. more bow sound or less bow sound) maybe this can be achieve by using the micing proximity effect, to emphasize more or less bow sound, which can be controlled via cross-fading controllers within the Vienna Instrument), many articulations, for fast, and for slow string lines, sufficient velocity layers, Sweet singing timbre (NOT rigid, cold, harsh) Please !

The mic proximity effect/ mic placement and type of mics used, is a big factor, (experimenting here is a key factor) and I would say critical to achieve the right balance between musical and non musical strings when triggered back as samples, and please don't forget the Playability factor. (I am sure this is nothing new to the VSL recording engineers, but "Experimenting" teaches us many new things we did not know, it is a very important task !)

I would strongly stress : Timbre, Timbre, Timbre. Violins are all about great sounding timbre... No great timbre, No great violin sound, simple as that.

There is a fine line between capturing that magical timbre of the violins, or not capturing it. I find great violin timbre is the missing link between real and sampled violins.

A tough instrument to re-produce in sample libraries, I know, but it's all about the challenge, isn't it ?

Please don't rush this project, rushing it, will simply ruin it. Please give it enough time, lots of tender care, and attention to detail. It's Worth every second IMHO.

This is not 'Bonus Material', this is 'Essential Material' that was missing for a long time.

I hope you have lots of fun producing 'Epic Violins' they will serve us all "Epically"

[:D]

An Epic Step up for the Vienna Strings.

Thanks for listening.

Very nice idea, thanks

BTW, what's new in the ORCHESTRAL STRINGS I and ORCHESTRAL STRINGS II ?
Are they some new articulation like piano performance legato ?
For epic strings, as you have "only" 3 days, I would like (among many others) some really cool effects, like:
• trille or tremolos glissandi up to the end of the strings, let say on 24 start notes.
free improvisation (yes, they can do that, I conducted some string orchestra and they did it very well):
• Just give hem a range, like C4 to F4, and they slide pp randomly from one point to another.
• Short hard very high pitched and agressive attack fff not really precise, that make a cool effect for intense suspense movies.
• untuned notes, they play each note but with an altered finger position that they choose

and so on…

That would be fantastic

Whatever you record, we'll be very happy

@Christian Marcussen said:

Ok, too bad - but expected.
Tough choice. I say we should focus on sustains in multiple velocities. For these warm, romantic strings we would really need to be able to do crossfaded dynamics.

That is really preferable, as well as crossfading repetitions (i guess repetitions are not as complicated as legatos). I'm sure, if you mix such strings with existing performance legatos (Pro, Chamber), the result will be satisfying.

@muziksculp said:

I think this is a golden opportunity to express what I feel are Some important characteristics, and parameters to be carefully considered when producing 'Epic Violins'

(I figure, better said before they are produced, rather than after).

So, here a little list [8-)]

'Epic Violins' should be:

Warm, Expressive, lush, flexible, beautiful timbre, smooth sustain and release portions for legato, and expressivo articulations, dynamic, soft/mellow sounding when needed , and aggressive sounding when that is called for, nice and accurate bowing attacks captured, flexibility of increasing, or decreasing the "Scratch sound of the bowing action" (i.e. more bow sound or less bow sound) maybe this can be achieve by using the micing proximity effect, to emphasize more or less bow sound, which can be controlled via cross-fading controllers within the Vienna Instrument), many articulations, for fast, and for slow string lines, sufficient velocity layers, Sweet singing timbre (NOT rigid, cold, harsh) Please !

The mic proximity effect/ mic placement and type of mics used, is a big factor, (experimenting here is a key factor) and I would say critical to achieve the right balance between musical and non musical strings when triggered back as samples, and please don't forget the Playability factor. (I am sure this is nothing new to the VSL recording engineers, but "Experimenting" teaches us many new things we did not know, it is a very important task !)

I would strongly stress : Timbre, Timbre, Timbre. Violins are all about great sounding timbre... No great timbre, No great violin sound, simple as that.

There is a fine line between capturing that magical timbre of the violins, or not capturing it. I find great violin timbre is the missing link between real and sampled violins.

A tough instrument to re-produce in sample libraries, I know, but it's all about the challenge, isn't it ?

Please don't rush this project, rushing it, will simply ruin it. Please give it enough time, lots of tender care, and attention to detail. It's Worth every second IMHO.

This is not 'Bonus Material', this is 'Essential Material' that was missing for a long time.

I hope you have lots of fun producing 'Epic Violins' they will serve us all "Epically"

[:D]

An Epic Step up for the Vienna Strings.

Thanks for listening.

Well said.


Frankly Herb - when I first heard of the SC coming out THIS is what I was expecting (and willing to pay for - for the RIGHT thing). I am a little disspointed that is will be many months before something like this is in my arsesonal (and that it is considered 'bonus').

Personnally I say put all other 'extra horn, perc instruments on the back burner and get this done. Without a usuable upper range violin section - there is a huge whole in our mock-ups.

Again - from what you are reading here (for every 'one' person posting probably 20 would like to) - your customer base is begging for this product as well. And from what I read on many posts - willing to pay for it.

Please take the time to do this correctly and like I said - I can do without the latest rare instrument (inclusive of 20,000 samples) just to finally get a string section that I can use without hours and hours of tweaking, mixing, tucking, etc.

Thanks Herb for asking your customer base for advice - We will give you our honest evaluation.


Please believe me when I say I am in no way even close to John Barry's level but here is a cue I did last year using VSL (Director loves John Barry). What I personnally would like to see is the sound I got on the violins at :38 BUT 2-3 octaves higher.

For a later reprise of this theme I had to do this but it just didn't come off (had to use FH/Clarinets.)

Even in this example I wish I didn't have to bury the violins behind the clarinet and boy's choir.




http://www.robelliottmusic.com/mp3s/Religious/Until%20Forever.mp3">http://www.robelliottmusic.com/mp3s/Religious/Until%20Forever.mp3


Rob

what do the first edition users get?

@Rob Elliott said:

Frankly Herb - when I first heard of the SC coming out THIS is what I was expecting (and willing to pay for - for the RIGHT thing). I am a little disspointed that is will be many months before something like this is in my arsesonal (and that it is considered 'bonus').

Personnally I say put all other 'extra horn, perc instruments on the back burner and get this done. Without a usuable upper range violin section - there is a huge whole in our mock-ups.
Rob

I agree with this. Most of what can be construed as orchestral writing is 99% strings - more or less. Like I mentioned before - 3 days and 6 sessions seems it maybe a little short.

This could be a must have library if it works out.

Well, I don't know what makes a perfect sound, but I do know that when I listen to a symphony orchestra play slow string passages, live or on CD, the notes do not sound as perfectly in unison as we are a custom to on VSL, and you could pick out individual vibratos here and there, so sweet to hear them, and to me that gives much warmth to the sound. All I know is that my ears don't lie to me. So as long as warmth is there, I'm in.

BTW, this is something I have been heavily preaching in the past. I'm extremely surprised to see a few posters comments...

@Guy said:

Well, I don't know what makes a perfect sound, but I do know that when I listen to a symphony orchestra play slow string passages, live or on CD, the notes do not sound as perfectly in unison as we are a custom to on VSL, and you could pick out individual vibratos here and there, so sweet to hear them, and to me that gives much warmth to the sound. All I know is that my ears don't lie to me. So as long as warmth is there, I'm in.

BTW, this is something I have been heavily preaching in the past. I'm extremely surprised to see a few posters comments...

KEEP PREACHING BROTHER!!!!!! [[;)]]

@muziksculp said:

Hi Herb,
Yes ! This is a wonderful [I] I think we are all in need for additional strings, 'Epic Violins' will be a great addition, maybe'Epic Celli' will follow them... [[;)]]

I don't own the Pro Edition Strings, but own some of the Horizon series titles, I will instantly buy "Epic Violins", this is a no brainer for me, highly needed !
Thanks.

there is nothing to add to this! where can we preorder it [:D] ?

Herb,

If this is recorded between January and February, when do you think it will be released?

@Another User said:

If this is recorded between January and February, when do you think it will be released?

One months after recording probably. (for download)

best
Herb

It just struck me - Herb and company are some pretty smart fellows. They wouldn't walk away from such 'commercial potential' as this library would afford (reason for not doing this until now).

It could be simply a matter of 'how to get that sound'. Don't you think 'someone' would have released it by now - if it was even possible???

A recent string library release (from a competitor to remain nameless) was so awful that my old JV strings could put it to shame (harsh and brittle come to mind - over the whole range). These people wouldn't spend 50K to do that on purpose. It must just be hard or near impossible to get this silky, warm sound from live section to sample library.

What's up with that? I know that violins have almost limitless articulations - variations, tunings, vibrato depth differences, etc - but why hasn't this sound been capture to date?

Any ideas from our resident geniuses (and I mean that seriously) - perhaps there will be a clue for VSL to ponder - while preparing and recording it.


Rob

Rob:

Really good point. Even before jumping into this world of sample orchestras I had often wondered about that. I hadn't thought it through the way you just did though. It must be very difficult or someone would, at least, have given it really good try. No one is recording bad samples on purpose. I'd love to hear what others think about how it might be done. I certainly don't know the answer.

Be Well,

Poppa

BTW: How do you guys make the quotes of others appear in the little boxes [*-)]:

There's no real secret to it.

I've been doing live string sessions since the early 80s and the formula is very simple:

1 Have enough players (i.e., don't expect "JFK" with 14 violins! [;)])

2 Don't put the mics to close

After that, it's all in the players themselves.

Looking closer...
Remember also that in actually playing a soaring, beautiful line, the violins are not in any steady state...they are constantly changing between more and less vibrato depending on the phrase, whether the phrase pauses briefly, etc. Being able to bring in the vibrato via MODW, or, possibly using the new VSL's detection engine, when a phrase pauses briefly(or not so briefly) automatically would help immensely.

Nothing is static with live players, so far, that's the biggest difference between sampled and real. Varying dynamics, and vibrato, entering and leaving at natural moments.

TH