Hermitage-
I use Sibelius 3 and agree it is by far the finest notation program out there. I also totally agree with you about the lack of plug-in integration, especially commonly used ones like harmonics and cresc./dim. playback. The main problem in my opinion is something you didn't talk about directly - NONE OF THE PLUGINS HAVE AN "UNDO" FUNCTION. This is such a pain in the butt, and it forces you to check every single step you do with a plug in and make sure to save an alternate copy of the file just in case you didn't want to do that. In my opinion, if Sibelius just created an undo function for all the plug-ins, it would make people much happier.
Just for your information, I have talked directly to Sibelius experts in person at music conventions and voiced my concerns about this. The Sibelius expert told me that he was quite aware of this, and has heard many complaints about this, but because of the programming code in which the plug-ins were written, it is impossible to create an undo function. The plug-ins, as I understand it, are written in an open-source format and anyone can write one for Sibelius - the problem is that they can never be fully integrated into Sibelius. This seems like a major flaw that needs to be adressed, and possibly they need to release a new programming code format that will allow full integration into future releases of Sibelius.
-mvanbebber

Mvan,
I was told the same, and i'm not surprised there's more who wish for an undo function. Still, it's their software, and our choice if we want it or not.

I have a question at this point.
I looked at finale years ago, and haven't been near it since.
Does Finale rate near Sibelius theses days, and given the discussion we've been having, can you input hairpins and hear them live, as a built in design?
If someone can give me a comparison (objectively) i'd appreciate it.

And does Finale have a version for Mac?

Regards to you all, I'm off to computer school to learn how to write software programs for proper musicians.
(if you want anything done............)


Alex!

I love both Video and dynamic parts. I was grumping about the missing video integration more than once. Also for the type of scores I did recently I really could have used the easy copy-paste into word functionality.

I agree, however, that when the playback can fully deal with VSL the complete dream comes true.

Hermitage-
Sorry to say that Finale is way, way behind Sibelius in just about every way. Having downloaded the Sibelius 4 demo, now I can say that they are many years behind in every concievable parameter that I can think of. I have been a Finale user from Finale 1.0 (in 1989) to Finale 2004, so I know Finale perhaps better than Sibelius. When I tried Sibelius 2, I was an instant convert. It just makes sense, and is so much more elegant than Finale, it's not even a fair comparison between the two. I think Finale needs to scrap the whole project completely and start over again with a completely new approach, but that will not happen. Its funny, I can see so much of version 1.0 (from 1989) in Finale 2004, the core of the program hasn't really changed very much at all. Most changes to the program have been cosmetic over the years, and there have been no major changes in thinking. At its core, Finale is really very archaic in the way it requires users to complete tasks, way too many keystrokes and not in any way intuitive or visual like Sibelius.
The crescendos work the same in Finale, but are much more difficult to enter in the score (in my opinion.)

I'm only an ocasional Finale user so not as passionate as anyone else here. I have Finale 2004, but I see on the website that Finale 2006 integrates the Garritan Personal Orchestra. Likewise a new program called Notion includes specially recorded samples of the LSO. Which leads me to my wish item: a version of Finale (or equivalent) that incorporates VSL samples with all the articulations -- i.e. draw a staccato and hear a staccato. And have it play back Quicktime video AND have audio plug-ins. That would be something!

JD

To chime in about the Sibelius issue, I'm coming to Sibelius-->ESX from Sibelius-->Kontakt, which I've been using for 8-9 months with good success. I understand and share some of your frustrations, but here are some obvservations, for what they're worth.

First, I've been very happy with the Sibelius-->Kontakt setup I've developed. It took a while to understand and create a setup that allowed the two programs to speak to one another transparently, so that, at this point, I never fuss with Kontakt once I'm set for a piece. (Oh, I rarely decide to add or adjust some aspect of the samples, etc.) It it a real trick to learn and implement everything, but once you're set, I have no complaints about how well it all works. I'm switching to Logic/EXS for two main reasons: the lure of potentially more available samples at one time, some of the parameter options/capabilities of the EXS, and the fact that upper level VSL is native for EXS. Later, I expect to also use other functions of Logic, but not the Score function. Don't get me wrong, for what it does, the Score part of Logic is great. It's just not Sibelius, which is clearly superior at notation...it should be, that's what it is. (By the way, I only work on paper or directly in Sibelius. I worked only on paper until 2000, when I did my second symphony directly in Finale, which I have 20 years experience using. From that background, I can tell you that I simply love working in Sibelius compared to Finale.)

As for various issues in Sibelius, I have them, too, but I've found a few ways to streamline the problems. Some examples:
1) I use macros to program my computer keyboard function keys (and other key combinations) with various often used tasks. I use a program called Quickkeys, but there are others. For example, Function Key 1 opens the zoom tool (glad to see that's now available in Sibelius 4, as well as the ability to program various shortcut keys). Function Key 2 opens the cresc./dim. plugin. (I could, in fact, program several specific operations with that plugin if I wished...several levels of volume change that might work for a variety of settings. I haven't done this, but it would not be hard to do.) Another function key is set to open the Live Velocity options window, where you can add, subtract, or scale velocities of groups of notes. You can even do this for an entire vertical stack of staves at once....not having to repeat this for each staff. If you have a staff you want to leave out of your vertical selection, simply Command-click it, and it becomes unselected without de-selecting anything else.
2) As for getting around the lack of an undo, here's one idea that can avoid copying backups of whatever you're fussing with dynamically. Setup your Advanced Filter to filter only Control Change 7 (or 11, if you're using that for volume). Select the passage you want to redo the volume on, filter it, and delete the CC data. Redo until you're happy. With experience, you become pretty good at guessing what numbers to use, based on the velocity of the passage. You can also fine-tune using velocity if you get fairly close. It's not a bad idea to make a chart of the mapping between Sibelius' 0-100% numbers and the 1-127 midi numbers. It's really silly for Sibelius not to include an option to switch between these two scales, but it's also fairly easy to live with this until they fix that.
3) Once you have the cresc/dim like you want it, you can use the Advanced Filter to copy it and paste it to other instruments...all at once, as many staves as you wish...even non-contiguous ones.
4) As for changing articulations, you can again use the filter function to copy and paste these wherever you wish. Remember that copying something in Sibelius is simply a matter of selecting it and Option-clicking in the spot where you want it...whatever IT is. For ex-Finale users, this one trick alone is amazing. You can also rubber-band select items or Command-select for noncontiguous items.
5) Also, don't forget the Live Velocity bars above the notes. If you turn this on, you essentially have Hyper-editing for velocty right above the notes. You can drag a velocity curve right there.

Sure, I've got complaints about Sibelius. Who doesn't? But I'll NEVER use Finale again unless it's to work with my composition students' files or to edit my old pieces. When I'm finished with a piece having done it in Sibelius, I'm done, and with an amazingly small amount of very quick cleanup, I'm ready to print.

Hope this helps or spurs more ideas. Now I have a question for everyone about hard drives, which I'm about to post in a different thread, and I welcome any advice.

Cheers,
Blind Lemon

blind_lemon - too bad, your post got cut off, and I guess you didn't get a warning? It's a known problem, unfortunately posts with more than around 4000 chars get cut off...

I begrudge spending £100 on an upgrade which, new features aside, is a very overdue bug fix. if you look at the list of fixes from version 3 to 4, there are hundreds of things that have been fixed, and many of them have been a pain in the butt for me and many of my Sib user friends. If they are going to charge the price they charge for a program (which I happily paid since there is nothing in my mind to touch it) and then keep charging existing and loyal users significant amounts of money (many of you will have been on board since version 1 or 2) for some new features, but also a well overdue bugfix then they can't be surprised if many current V3 users don't upgrade.

I complained to Sibelius before about the cost of upgrading from 2 to 3, and their response was not one of caring about their existing customers. Still, their product is fantastic, and they have a business to run.

Oh God...I have been ranting aimlessly...sorry guys.

While we're discussing the pros and cons, can anyone give any opinon on Geniesoft's Overture?

Raw, i can understand your feelings. I think if there is an aspiring software developer out there reading all of this, now's the time to build the next generation notation program, complete with sample player, mixer, sequencer, etc.

I only wish i was clever enough to do this myself!


Regards,

Alex.

@Another User said:

now's the time to build the next generation notation program, complete with sample player, mixer, sequencer, etc.

www.notionmusic.com

*Banquo

@Another User said:

now's the time to build the next generation notation program, complete with sample player, mixer, sequencer, etc.

www.notionmusic.com

*Banquo

Hmmmmmmm. methinks not. Playback not as good as in any sequencer, notation shocking [[:|]]

DG

Okay. I have just tried sib 4. I love the video thing (and the time code thing for that matter) but it still is missing the midi functionality needed in a few key areas (as far as I can tell)

You need to be able to shape midi controllers. The dynamic tool is limited to only 2 controlers and it is very unforgiving to use. Is there another version of this plugin that gives you more flexiblity?

I didn't go any further past that limitation but the other issue would be how easy it is to manipulate key velocities and note lenghth and also tempos. (also possibly channel changes mid measure etc. for when you want to end with clean scores and midi playback)

As cheezy as finale is, it's "midi tool" is 100% more useful and powerful than the sib 4. Like most things in finale its quirky but very powerful. If you don't beleive finale can produce great sounding midi go to my website

www.SymphonicUproar.com

and listen to any of the synth demos. They are all done soley on finale with giga studio and exs 24 running samples.

If we are making requests then, of course, I request a pefrect notation program with perfect intergration of sequencer like capbiblities. Man when are they going to freaking figure this out?!?!? It is a pretty simple request, no?

Magates-
Can Finale switch midi channels on the same staff? What version do you have?
thanks,

Finale can do any midi command that a sequencer can do. It is actually better than a sequencer at changing patches/channel on the same staff. The way I and others do it is to create an expression (it can be hidden or have no text at all if you want a clean score) and then select playback options there you can assign it to change channel/or patch along with a huge amount of other options.

I use 2005 but theese features have been available for a lot of versions.

One word of warning be careful with patch changes they won't playback unless you play from at least where the change occurs (this is true of most sequencers as well). (I think they will playback if you use the space bar mouse start method as opposed to the playback controls).

Firstly,
Mvan, thanks for the tip about Finale. I tried it and couldn't get on. Lots of stuff that seems incredibly unwieldy, and i agree, Sibelius is better than Finale.

But,
I've downloaded the demo of a program Called Overture 3 (version 4 out soon)
and had a lot of fun putting stuff together quickly and easily. It's easy to learn (given some basic knowledge of notation software), and the input is almost instinctive. By that i mean, it does what is says on the packet, without having to set up a lot of stuff first.
Better than that, Version 4 will be a native host for VST (Not RTAS or AU just yet)
so a wrapper for those in OSX will help with this. (I'm wondering if it will work with Andrea's Keymap due out soon as a 'midicabled' standalone.)
It's easy to to use, and with dynamic control specifically bullt in, including hairpins (not as a plugin), the response is immediate. The interface is easy on the eye, and doesn't give you a headache after the first ten hours (I tested this!)
I'm going to use it further and post here with updates.

Regards to you all,

Alex.

@hermitage59 said:

But,
I've downloaded the demo of a program Called Overture 3 (version 4 out soon)
and had a lot of fun putting stuff together quickly and easily. It's easy to learn (given some basic knowledge of notation software), and the input is almost instinctive. By that i mean, it does what is says on the packet, without having to set up a lot of stuff first.
Better than that, Version 4 will be a native host for VST (Not RTAS or AU just yet)
I'm going to use it further and post here with updates.

Regards to you all,

Alex.

There is a lot of talk about this on NS at the moment. I've also tried the version 3 demo, but it looks horrible (compared with Sibelius and Finale) and it can't do what my sequncer can, so for me it seems to be a good solution mainly for hobbyists and students (nothing wrong with that!).

DG

I used to use overture when it was version 1.1. I liked it at the time, but was very happy to move to Sibelius when it arrived. The other thing also, was that Overture kept changing hands. First it was one company, then another...I never knew who I belonged to.

The interface was clunky then. It sounds like it hasn't really moved on. The output wasn't bad though - better than Logic.

DG,
While I agree the interface isn't as pretty as Sibelius, the functions are, well, functional.
I'm not sure about the hobbyist bit either. After some research on the Overture forum, it seems version 4 will improve in terms of appearance, and the addtion of hosting is a development i'm interested in. I wrote in another post about not really needing a heavyweight, nearly all singing and dancing program like Logic, or Cubase, just notation, multi sample playback, and mix with record and effects capability.
As a quill, parchment, and ink user, i tend to think in terms of manuscript useability when i assess any software, so i guess my opinion is biased in this direction. I've used sequencers only to write short stuff, paid work, but nothing running to a full symphony or concerto.
So, i'm looking for a superb notational program that plays multi samples, and records to a mixer enabling me to add effects if i wish.
If i need to use a sequencer i have two, Logic and Cubase OSX, but they stay off more than get turned on.
But a notationally prominent software program with the extras i listed is more for me and my method of musical creation.

It's a matter of personal preference, and, to be open minded, however we get there, it's the end result that counts. I'd like the journey to be a little simpler with less programming and more writing, in a format i'm more comfortable with.

Regards,

Alex.

@hermitage59 said:

DG,
While I agree the interface isn't as pretty as Sibelius, the functions are, well, functional.
I'm not sure about the hobbyist bit either. After some research on the Overture forum, it seems version 4 will improve in terms of appearance, and the addtion of hosting is a development i'm interested in. I wrote in another post about not really needing a heavyweight, nearly all singing and dancing program like Logic, or Cubase, just notation, multi sample playback, and mix with record and effects capability.
As a quill, parchment, and ink user, i tend to think in terms of manuscript useability when i assess any software, so i guess my opinion is biased in this direction. I've used sequencers only to write short stuff, paid work, but nothing running to a full symphony or concerto.
So, i'm looking for a superb notational program that plays multi samples, and records to a mixer enabling me to add effects if i wish.
If i need to use a sequencer i have two, Logic and Cubase OSX, but they stay off more than get turned on.
But a notationally prominent software program with the extras i listed is more for me and my method of musical creation.

It's a matter of personal preference, and, to be open minded, however we get there, it's the end result that counts. I'd like the journey to be a little simpler with less programming and more writing, in a format i'm more comfortable with.

Regards,

Alex.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I would love it to be the silver bullet. Unfortunately I think that the notational side is not in the same league as Sibelius and it has nowhere near the functionality of Nuendo so I have no use for it at all. Of course if things improve one one side or other over the years then I will certainly look at it again.

DG