Beat, when I move the "sound sources" (the grey balls) toward the centre (in the Surround Pan window), I also notice a decrease in output volume - both aurally, and in the channel's level meter! Is this supposed to happen?! (The level I hear in your "Violins Stereo To Near Mono" matches the level I get when leaving the sound sources at complete stereo -- ie, with each "ball" at extreme L & R.)

I notice some differences between the picture of the Surround Pan window that you used in your tutorial, and what my Surround Pan window shows -- and I'm wondering if that's got something to do with this:

In yours, the 45-degree lines that emanate from the L and R speakers converge at the centre of the window -- even when your sound sources (the grey balls) are brought toward centre. On mine, the more I move the balls toward centre, the more the lines from L & R speakers retreat , back toward the speakers.
As well, your photo shows a number of "balls", moving toward centre. Unless you used some special photographic technique (or another version of Cubase), I don't know how you got this picture: on mine, there's a single ball for L and another for R.

I'm confused [*-)]

(And I'm using Cubase SX3.1.1.)

Any comments would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

- Michael

@michael_maberly said:

...
Any comments would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
- Michael

Hi Michael
I've noticed your questions. Be a little patient until tomorrow.
It is 03:00 AM. So it is time to go to bed.
I'll be back after having a "healthy christmas-sleep".
Good night [[;)]] !

All the best
Beat Kaufmann

@Beat Kaufmann said:

It is 03:00 AM. So it is time to go to bed.
I'll be back after having a "healthy christmas-sleep".
Good night [[;)]] ! Beat Kaufmann

Sorry to bug you this time of the night!! (It's still evening in Canada.) Have a great rest, a wonderful Christmas Eve (tomorrow), and please take your time in responding to my questions.

Best regards,

Michael

Hi Beat;

(For you to read only after your well-deserved time away from this forum!)

I wonder if this partially answers my previous question regarding output volume differences when using Surround Pan:

A tip from another user forum – and some research – led me to Surround Pan’s “Pan Law” options. Cubase’s manual explained that “without power compensation, the power of the sum of the left and right side will be higher (louder) if a channel is panned center than if it’s panned left or right. To remedy this, the Stereo Pan Law setting allows you to attenuate signals panned center, by -6, -4.5 or -3dB”.

So, I experimented with the different options, comparing peak levels obtained both before and after Surround Panning with different pan law options. Here's what I found: since volume output increases in direct relation to the amount toward centre one pans, one needs a corresponding "sliding scale" of pan law amounts (that is, pan law amounts that would move in very small increments, from 0dB to -.1 dB, -.2dB, -.3dB, etc) in order to exactly compensate for every possible amount of movement toward centre. So, while (for example) -3dB comes close to compensating for the volume increase when panning so that L/R = 30, it's way off when panning so that L/R = 60.

Naturally, the fixed settings of 0dB, -3dB, -4.5dB and -6dB only result in rough compensations. Is this the best one can do?

How did you manage to keep output levels the same, even after using Surround Pan to pan different amounts toward centre?

Thanks again!

- Michael

@michael_maberly said:

Hi Beat;
1. I don't know how you got this picture: on mine, there's a single ball for L and another for R.

2. Naturally, the fixed settings of 0dB, -3dB, -4.5dB and -6dB only result in rough compensations. Is this the best one can do?

3. How did you manage to keep output levels the same, even after using Surround Pan to pan different amounts toward centre?

Michael

Hi Michael
Sorry for my delay. I catched a cold > bed > no forum. But now I'm back.

To your questions:
1. As you suspect: It is a "photomontage". First I wanted to make an animated picture. But I noticed that it is a waste of time. So I realized a "quasi" animated picture.

2. and 3. I never had a problem with the default -3dB. Perhaps it is not optimized. My workflow is:
a) Placing each instrument in its width and in its position (between L and R)
b) Keeping the volume balance between all instruments

EvenI would have the maximum compensation I would fiddle around for minutes and ours to keep this balance between all instruments.

But you are right, the using of the Surround Panner Effect has disadvantages as you pointed out it...

Because of that I added a section in VSL GENERAL:
Panning/Panorama/Stereo/Mono
There you will find other possibilities to pan and monoize your signals...
particularly because you are a Cubase SX 3 user. [:D]


All the best
from the very cold Switzeland (in some parts -31°)

Beat Kaufmann

@Another User said:

from the very cold Switzeland (in some parts -31°)

Oooh, that's cold! We get that here, sometimes, but it usually passes in a day or two. We have what we call "freezing rain" this week -- that's when what begins as rain falls as ice, making movement dangerous. Still, it's all aesthetically beautiful!

Best wishes for the new year, Beat!
- Michael

@Another User said:

Because of that I added a section in VSL GENERAL:
Panning/Panorama/Stereo/Mono
There you will find other possibilities to pan and monoize your signals...
particularly because you are a Cubase SX 3 user. [:D]

Beat, you are a prince of a guy [:)] -- thank-you very much! I'll download and study it asap!
- Michael
Sorry my dear, perhaps you didn't got the newest PDF.
I have changed some things at Gigapulse Demo today, so you will
get the really newest version yet.
So please feel free to start the PDF-download once more.
http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/downloads/bkhowtousevslingeneral.pdf

All the best
Beat

@Another User said:

Because of that I added a section in VSL GENERAL:
Panning/Panorama/Stereo/Mono
There you will find other possibilities to pan and monoize your signals...
particularly because you are a Cubase SX 3 user. [:D]

Hi, Beat;

Great addition to the Tutorial! On behalf of everyone out here -- THANKS!

Beat, when I first ran into the problem of increased output volume when using Surround Pan, I accidentally found and tried the Cubase SX3 "Stereo Combined Panner" -- one of the solutions you recommend in your new section on Panning. What I found is that it produced substantially different peak and lowest volume levels than occur in the original
(non-narrowed-stereo-field) audio. So this problem of panning-causing-volume-changes seems to be following me around! Is this is a natural occurence when you pan, too -- and do you simply accept it, and do your volume levels post-panning? Or have you found a way to use either the Stereo Combined Panner or Surround Pan so that they do not interfere with previously-set volume levels? (By the way, I also found that the "Equal Power" setting does not in any way eliminate these output volume effects when panning with the Stereo Combined Panner.)

Regarding GigaPulse (which, alas, I don't own): I've heard it is pretty heavy on the CPU -- is this your experience too?

Thanks again, Beat!

Best regards,
Michael

@Another User said:

...What I found is that it produced substantially different peak and lowest volume levels than occur in the original (non-narrowed-stereo-field) audio. So this problem of panning-causing-volume-changes seems to be following me around! Is this is a natural occurence when you pan, too -- and do you simply accept it, and do your volume levels post-panning?

Regarding GigaPulse (which, alas, I don't own): I've heard it is pretty heavy on the CPU -- is this your experience too?

Michael

Hi Michael
I often use the VST effect Stereo Expander from WaveLab to adjust
the stereo width and then I take the default Cubase balance mode of
the mixer's tracks for left/right.
In my tutorials I must offer solutions with tools that every one has.
Further on I believe that I am not the right partner to come to
"a satisfactory end" of your research ("Stereo - Balance").
I feel, that you are the specialist in "the field of balance" and I can learn
from you.
So I suggest, that you try out all solutions (also with the kelly stereo tools
and others). If you come do a final and best solution I like to publish it
in my tutorial.

Gigapulse has an eco-mode which sounds quite good and uses not heavy
power. But please: I have "only" listen to the two different sounds
(economy and full) and I was quite satisfied with the eco-type. [[;)]]
I am a happy man because I have not checked and measured the
technical specifications... [:D]

I wish you - and all the other forum visitors
a Happy New Year

Beat Kaufmann

@Beat Kaufmann said:

. . . I am a happy man because I have not checked and measured the
technical specifications... [:D]

And a wise one, too! [[;)]]
I'm only looking at everything because I'm a complete beginner and don't yet know what's important and what isn't. The material you created for your tutorials sounds terrific, so if imitating your procedures will lead to results that are even half that good, I'll be very satisfied!

Thanks, Beat!

Best regards,
Michael

Hi Beat!

I have been reading your tutorial and I must first thank you for writing this comprehensive and helpful guide for newbies like me! [[:P]]

I am now working on doing some studio recordings of pieces from the musicals I wrote in the past few years. So I have been trying things as what you wrote in the tutorial... well... mostly.... hehe, some of the info are too technical for me to understand. But I guess I did manage to follow the procedures.

Here is the MMO of a song I just finished and would really love to hear your comments on it please! [[;)]]

http://www.frankieho.com/music/trial_scene_2.mp3">http://www.frankieho.com/music/trial_scene_2.mp3

And here is the seating plan I used for the mock-up (which is quite close to what I did back in the performance).

http://www.frankieho.com/music/seating_plan.bmp

A few notes too :

1) Since this is an MMO, you might find the music goes very disjointed since the vocals is missing. [[:P]]
2) I intentionally avoided any instrument in dead centre coz I am reserving that spot for the singer!
3) For this song reed 1 is flute, reed 2 is tenor sax, reed 3 is Eb clarinet. Harp isn't used.
4) All instruments are VSL except the harpsichord and B3.

I was using Samplitude to mix, with Waves' S1 Imager and Shuffler, and Wizoo's W2 for reverb.

Hope this doesn't sound too horrible! [[:|]] Would really love to know how do you think! Actually all comments are welcome, whoever! hehe Thanks so much!

Cheers,
Frankie

@Frankie Ho said:

I have been reading your tutorial ...
I am now working on doing some studio recordings ....
Here is the MMO of a song I just finished and would really love to hear your comments on it please! ...

And here is the seating plan I used for the mock-up...

Hope this doesn't sound too horrible!
Would really love to know how do you think!
Cheers,
Frankie

Hi Frankie
I've listened to your mp3. Every thing seems to be OK so far.
You are at the finish > The center is ready to take solo. All the instruments are in their places like you designed it.
So I' am looking foreward to the finalmix - with the solo.
Up to now you did a good job and because it is your first one with VSL > special congratulations! ...keep it up ...go on! [:D]
(My first mock-up didn't reach this quality.)

All the best from Switzerland

Hi Beat, thanks so much for your kind words! I must say your tutorials are really insightful as well as easy to follow too. Actually if it wasn't your tutorials, I wouldn't have decided to order the Pro Edition too (the MMO you heard was done with Opus Bundle only, plus Sax 1). VSL should thank you! [:D]

Great thing was the package arrived yesterday, spent some nightmare-ish time installing... hehe... but I can now experiment with the articulations as suggested in your tutorials too! [H]

Thanks again!

Cheers,
Frankie

Beat.... you are for me the GODFATHER of tutorials...

thanx...

greets,
Acker [:)]

Hello to the big familiy of music and samples

I thank you so much for visiting 10000 times my tutorials "How to use VSL"!

http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/Rosenstrauss.jpg">

I will go on. While listening to
......... the most asked questions in this forum
........................the number of tutorials will increase
......... of course outside the VSL tutorials.

Next possible themes:

[list:b2d12c9ccb] - MIDI and VI (analogous Midi and VSL)

- Audio Effects, like Compressor, Multicompressor, Limiter, Exiter, ...
...How do they work, parameters, what are they used for(examples)

- ...? [/list:u:b2d12c9ccb]
Yours
Beat Kaufmann

i hope to god VSL has given you the whole VI set .. if not , they should !! [:D]

Fact 1
The problem is, that you need a "good" organisation of all the used
keyswitches with the new Vienna Instrument.

Fact 2
You played a melody with the VI-trumpet. Later on you prefer to play
the melody with a flute. The question is: "Which keyswitches did I
used for the trumpet?"

The frustration
Perhaps you have lost the notes about all your trumpet keyswitch settings.
Starting at square one again. What a pitty!

The Solution
I have created general - equal -presets for all instruments.
They contain the most used samples which (more or less) are
available from every instrument (also ensembles).
And further: For each group of instruments I added the most
typical common additions.
So you will find portatos with the strings or repetitions with the
woodwinds.

With the VI-basic-presets...
Play a melody with the Oboe and change the instrument after it...
Transpose the melody for the Viola or the Cello ...

Listen to this example:
Instrument Exchange Oboe, Chamber Violins, Flute, Solo Viola, Solo Cello, Bassoon Ensemble, All.

You will have nothing more to do than to change the instrument by
choosing the corresponding Basic-Organisation-Preset for the instrument
you prefer... [:D]

More >>> VI-Basic Presets

All the best
Beat Kaufmann

Fantastic tutorial. Thank you. In Logic Pro, I am unfamiliar with "monoize". You explained how to do it in Cubase, but I'm in Logic. Once I've "monoized", I understand how to move that new entity around to form a symphony.

@violinnoel said:

Fantastic tutorial. Thank you. In Logic Pro, I am unfamiliar with "monoize". You explained how to do it in Cubase, but I'm in Logic. Once I've "monoized", I understand how to move that new entity around to form a symphony.

Hey Violinnoel.

I may be able to help you hear cos Beat already told me about this. In Logic, open up the Dir Mix plugin (Direction mixer). With this you can set Panning and stereo width.

After Beat explained some of this to me, for my own album mixing, I prepared a mix chart (On my website), that holds some quick reference notes for Logic users .. you may find it useful. If you look at the Dir Mix plugins I show you the stereo widths that I use .. and relative pannings.

Monoizing is just reducing stereo width to better locate your instruments. IE I keep my flutes in Half mono .. or 0.5 stereo. Beat had suggested to me that full mono is not a very good thing to do in a full orchestra cos it ruins some of the qualities of the instrument. Sorry if you already knew that, but I'm just covering it in case.

Take a look at the Mix chart if your curious about how I use the "Monoizing" techniques with Dir Mix. You'll see that I run the Dir Mix plugs over my main busses on the mix console.

it's at www.elvenmusic.com/vsl/vsl.html ... scroll down until you see the mix chart pic. Then you can download the PDF.

Hope that helps.

Hi Beat !

THANX A LOT FOR THE TUTORIALS ! Your tips r really like a swizz knife for me !
yeah....VSL Swizz knife !
( I think 4 all VSL users )
GREAT !

[:D]