I'll give it an award if you like!
THUMBS UP!
Why didn't VSL do this in the first place? Man that makes me mad.
Evan Evans
THUMBS UP!
Why didn't VSL do this in the first place? Man that makes me mad.
Evan Evans
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[:D] Make it the "No-one Else Is Dumb Enough To Try This" Award, Evan.
It's a huge job, but very satisfying. I've always wanted true legato strings that can be played "live" with as little post-performance tweaking as possibe. All credit to Herb & the VSL team for coming up with the Performance Tool - THAT is what has made the difference. A similar attempt with the GOS Legato Tool failed to achieve the same results because the Leg Tool doesn't use transition samples. I think the future for articulation control lies in increasingly complex, intelligent software interfaces like the Perf.Tool controlling heaps of samples stacked on each note. I just want to play, not tweak.
BTW, someone with better looping skills could probably do this more economically. I've used the entire length of the mVsus samples, whereas a good loop could probaby be achieved with just half this sample length.
I just couldn't face crossfading AND looping each sample.
Something else I've discovered: some of the transition samples have a bit too much "bite" for slow passages, IMO. I found that this can be controlled by adjusting the volume of the initial attack of these transitions in the Envelope page. Not the attack time, just the volume (-4 db works great).
You still hear the slides, but the notes just melt into each other.
Regards,
Mike.
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Only people like us can understand the tedium of a project like that. I salute you. (And thanks for taking pity on those of us still stuck with a 56 K modem.)
Because of the mention of GOS, may I assume you did this on Giga? And if you did it on Giga, would loading your art files crossfade our same samples? My Giga chops have gotten a bit rusty, and I can't remember if art files include crossfade info, but I imagine they do.
The crossfades sound seamless to me, and in a mix, I could not tell the difference at all. Certainly, it is not as risky as blending a perf-leg target note with a different sustain sample on another channel, and that is presently our only alternative.
Now I'm dreaming of perf-leg crossfaded solo horn samples. But target notes are shorter there. There might not be enough to work with.
On average, how long did each note take you to crossfade? Can you find the sweet spot with relative ease? I'm flashing back to my looping days on the S-550, when I'd spend about twenty minutes per loop.
Finally, did you use release samples after the newly looped portion of the perf-leg notes?
Again, a great job, Mike. Thanks for sharing your work.
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Hello Plowman
1.I am using HALion 2 and the EXS samples from my Opus1 discs for this job. I own GS160 but could never get my head around the editor. Without wanting to get into a debate about which one is better, I have to say HAL beats GS hands down (IMHO) when it comes to editing and "getting at" my samples. After I have lengthened the sample (using Samplitude Pro 7) and copied it back into the same folder it originally resided in - making sure to rename it exactly the same - HALion simply plays it without having to re-assign or remap anything. So the whole focus is on the crossfading.
2.You raise an interesting question: could an .art file crossfade the samples, given that all the samples are from the same original family.
I don't know. Any Giga experts care to comment?
3.The length of the target notes is not an issue. I found that I only needed the small portion at the start (the all-important "slide"). There are timbral & vibrato differences between the legato samples and the main sustains which, unless crossfaded immediately after the "slide", become noticeable. An added bonus is the absence of vibrato at the beginning of the main sustain samples. This makes for realistic onset of vibrato AFTER a transition sample (a dead giveaway on some libs where the vibrato is too "established" after the new note is played). I treated each note differently to get as much natural variation as possible when playing them all together.
4. On average, about five minutes per crossfade. Here's the rundown:
a) In your wave editor (in my case, Samplitude), set up two stereo tracks.
b) In the top track, load the transition sample (eg. VI-14_leg_f_2-up A#3)
c) In the bottom track, load the sustain sample of the same pitch (ie.VI-14_mVsus_f_A#3).
d) Do the crossfade immediately after the attack portion of the transition sample, using appropriate curves. A slow crossfade works best.
e) Bounce the crossfaded samples as a 16bit stereo wav file to a seperate folder called "My VI-14_leg_f_2-up".
f) Copy the sample into the original VSL sample folder of the same name.
5. No, no release samples in this project. Personally, I don't think they are necessary for something like legato strings. They can break the seamless effect that the Perf Tool creates. Only my opinion, of course. [[;)]]
Regards,
Mike.
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Wow. This is fascinating. I don't own any high-powered sample processor, and I'm really numbed by the *relative* ease of this process (acknowledging again your perseverence).
It's worth noting that (to use a ten cent word) the homogeneity of the VSL samples allow for this kind of crossfading. It's a largely unspoken benefit of controlling so tightly the sample recording process. Indeed, vibrato and timbral differences will occur note by note, but instruments, room, positioning, and probably players were unchanging over multiple sessions. These are your allies.
Yes, I see what you mean about the length of the target note. Once the "scoop" is heard, you wouldn't need much for a crossfade.
Why did you choose to lengthen the samples (the mV sus, I'm assuming)? Just for a greater sustain?
My question on art files was based on a misreading. As I reread the thread, I saw that no looping was involved, and you actually created brand new samples with a crossfade, then a bounce. (I'm not sure what you meant about someone else looping more economically.)
To do something like this automatically, the sampler would have to play the first note without the legato head, then the legato note (when called for), and then crossfade to a third sample for the sustain. I don't know that this could be programmed on Giga 3.0 (or any other sampler). But if an art file for Giga 2.5 could do it, I imagine VSL would have released programs to that very end.
(I always get the feeling they chuckle when they read things like this, knowing the products that lie ahead.)
Great stuff, Mike.
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The whole reason for this undertaking was incredibly basic: longer sustains.
I could not accept the fact that my notes were dying on me before I wanted them to! And I simply do not have the time to do all manner of workarounds (no matter how ingenious [[;)]] ). Try explaining that to your client who's paying you by the hour!
Especially with something as revolutionary and beautiful as the perf.legato Violins.
But you're right about the samples: consistently and meticulously sampled across the entire range, even between different articulations. The stereo image is extremely stable. Any drifting would have made this crossfading exercise impossible. An outstanding achievement by VSL.
BTW, as much as I need to repeat this process for the Viola and Cello sections, I may pause. There may well be a new Strings revamp in the pipeline...
Glad that you've found this helpful, Plowman.
Best wishes,
Mike.
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I can't wait for VSL to one day release instruments which are simply (for example):
VLN-14_Leg_L
"L" for looped.
I know it's a lot to ask (a huge undertaking), but brain surgery is alot to ask of it's customers as well. Aren't businesses supposed to make it as easy as possible on their customers? That's good business right?
So who's going to float the bill for longer legato notes without surgery? VSL or it's customers?
I still remember the day I found out that the destination notes were not looped, and were actually only a few seconds long. It was like all my excitement sucked right out of me. I said, "you mean we still have to work to make samples sustain?". It was a major frustration, and it surprised everyone I knew that bought VSL in LA. We just weren't prepared for that kind of "unpreparedness". In LA, there is NO time for tweaking or repairing. Only time to play it once perfectly. We actually laugh at those who have "studio time" to work and tweak. Things move fast in the high paying jobs, and any one of the well off composer's would gladly pay for convenient samples. Of course LA is a small sector for VSL, but I have never held any other standard higher than the ability to "pass" Hollywood standards. You have to be a well greased fighting machine to satisfy the LA crowd.
I think the idea of crossfading to a looped note with the mod wheel is a half solution, which may indeed yield it's own interesting results, ... but I and my colleagues will still await the day of full long destination notes with open arms and our big wallets!
Evan Evans
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Would be great...
IMHO the brass needs even more lengthening than the strings
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True. I was just saying, VLN-14 as an example. I'll modify that.@Christian Marcussen said:
Would be great...
IMHO the brass needs even more lengthening than the strings
Evan Evans
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I for one am encouraged that Herb announced the new mapped versions for EXS. I can't stand its interface for doing any serious editing. It sounds as though Halion has a leg up in this fashion, although it still remains tedious work.
One question, Herb:
I understand this is a huge undertaking and announcing these things in advance is not the wisest policy (with changing deadlines, etc.) but is there more info concerning this update that you can leak? Like which libraries will be available first with the new patches? Is there a general timeline over the next couple of months or something?
Oops, that's more than one question.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to it. VSL continues to amaze me with their customer support.
Clark
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Yes, you are correct.
That is wonderful news. I appreciate the fact that this product continues to evolve after the sale.
Thanks!
Clark
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@herb said:
Do you mean the updates with the new mappings of the performance legato instruments - the new versions where you can blend via modwheel to the sustains?
The EXS version should be online soon, in the next few weeks, probably shortly after NAMM.
best
Herb
Herb, I have been here for a few days....is this new version available for Giga and up here somewhere? Thanks...
Tom
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Hello Paul,
It seems the two new zip files, PerfSet_Brass_v3b & PerfSet_Percussion_v3b respectively, have some problems:
The first one still gives the "does not exactly match" error message. This happened with the HO_PERF-LEGATO.GIG file. I will check if this happens with the other files as well.
The second one simply cannot be downloaded (file is missing i guess).
Can you please check again these two files?
Thank you,
Christian
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For each of these files this message appears:
" Note: the instruments you are importing were saved from a file whose wave pool does not exactly match the current wave pool. The differences include the following samples: blah blah blah "
The only files that caused me some problems are the Horn Perfomance Set ones:
20 HO_PERF-LEAGATO_v3b.art: 38 samples are listed.
ALL the other art files (22 HO -> 37 HO, except 21 HO) always list one sample: HO_RS_mf_C2
Hope this helps...
For some reasons i can't download the Percussion zip file. All the other files on the update page are available for download, but when I click on the link for the perc file, nothing happens... I'll try again later.
Thanks,
Christian
