Nick,

Maybe "obvious" is a bit of an overstatement. But if you've been following the progress of acoustic instrument "synthesis" (including sampling), then you will have seen a vast number of technologies being investigated over the last few years. The majority of them are closing in on some form of synthesis by analysis, which is already a hybrid. Some do the resythesis through granulation, others through additive synthesis, formant synthesis, phase vocoding, and so on... But all of them are invariably finding ways of resynthesizing the original sample, so that it can be "unlocked" with regard to frequency/time. That's the nut. Samples are locked, and the only way to break that is through some form of resynthesis (at least as far as I know!).

J.

[ps - by "following the progress" I'm not thinking of commercially available programs, but rather of various competing theories. There are .pdfs all over the web following this area of research if you look around. Pretty fascinating stuff, even if the math leaves me in the dark much of the time... I concentrate my attention on the "abstract" and the "conclusion"! [;)]]

I don't know if Synful is in it's complete stage yet, but I listened to some of the samples and they sound Synthesized. The Brass sounds pretty "synthy" but interesting, the solo violin sounds quite nice. It may be worth it just to buy it for that!

-Ben

@Another User said:

The majority of them are closing in on some form of synthesis by analysis, which is already a hybrid.

Do you have any juicy links, jbm?

hmmm... I don't really...

I found a couple of .pdfs I downloaded, at some point -- try these:

http://rubato-music.com/Media/Serra_SMS_97.pdf

http://rubato-music.com/Media/cardle_CMPC.pdf

I don't know if I can really leave these up, since I don't have any rights over them. But they were freely available when I downloaded them, so it shouldn't be a problem. It's funny... you'll notice that the first one is from way back in 97, and actually outlines the general type of synthesis used in Synful.

Anyway, there's much more out there... just Google!

J.

ps - check out this little bit of madness, while you're at it:

http://www.rubato-music.com/Media/leven.mp3

no... there's no Synful-ness in there, just pure VSL!

...actually, glancing over the second one, it's not really about instrument synthesis, but I remember being very interested in it at the time, and thinking that it could very well do the job!

J.

Thanks jbm, I'll check them out.

And your piece sounds very real.

I'll add my 2cents worth here... [:)]

At the end of the day, these are all musical tools and have the capability to produce similar results for which ever tool you choose to use.

To keep up with the latest libraries etc, is the same as trying to keep up with the latest PC Hardware. As soon as you purchase the latest and greatest, something else pops up....

I think its all part of the technological evolution...

And I think 2005 will see some more awesome releases of libraries...

You can spend thousands and thousands of $$$$ just trying to keep up.

Have a safe new years eve and a fantastic new year!! [:D]

Regards, Max.

Have

What the people posting here do not understand is the distinction I'm making. If somebody can fake something more or less o.k. it is all the same to them.

20 years ago similar people tried to use analog synthesizers to fake an orchestra. It was a musical grotesquerie. Instead of using great analog synthesizers like the Moog for what they can do, which are their own timbre - these people ignored everything characteristic of that sound and crudely attempted to force an orchestra out of it.

Samples are not the same principle as this synthesized, deconstructed waveform. Samples are reality. A precise, perfected form of pure recording of orchestral tones.

If someone records a violinist playing, note by note, that is a musically useable sound. It is not artificial at all, it is simply fragmented. And then the composer puts together the fragments.

But this tampering with the waveform to produce sound that is like the original violin but now can be played in a different way - it is disgusting. Because the people "playing" this violin cannot play that instrument, know nothing of the difficulties involved, and simply tap like chimps at a keyboard, and smile as they hear the fakery.

I am disgusted by this vulgar distortion of sound and acoustics. It is the opposite of what the VSL stands for - a precise and complete representation of every sound that an orchestra makes with scrupulous and respectful attention paid to every characteristic of the instruments.

So I guess you're a bit of a purist then eh William? I respect your POV but I guess I'm more liberal minded about Synful. I just did a little demo of it and posted it, with others, at V.I. Control Index. I think this program has merits. I like how it can duplicate the expressiveness of an acoustic instrument. Is it as good as VSL legato instruments? Um, nope. They are warmer, richer and sound more organic. But I do respect what Eric is trying to do with Synful Orchestra which is move closer toward more expressiveness in the performance of a MIDI instrument. I think he needs to work on it more to get it to a point where someone like me would part with $700 (Canadian) for it though....

I am one of those "Old World" synth players who is "guilty as charged." The weekest part was the percussion, followed by reeds. I did get good results for 1980's standards.

I love the new world order in regards to VSL and EWQL. Give me another year to learn and it will have changed again by then. So I keep my Prophet 10 close by just in case it goes full circle. Raise the bar. Pull the string.

about that epitaph...

Zenzilla
[[:|]]

@Another User said:

At the end of the day, these are all musical tools and have the capability to produce similar results for which ever tool you choose to use.

In some ways, but overall I'm not so sure. You tend to respond to the programs under your fingertips. Or I should say that most people do; William would consider that vulgar.

In fact, William would probably consider the way I write vulgar: using a combination of playing and scribbling. But I have no problem admitting that my fingers find things my brain wouldn't, and v.v.

William, you'd really hate the Yamaha VL1. [:)]

@William said:

Because the people "playing" this violin cannot play that instrument, know nothing of the difficulties involved, and simply tap like chimps at a keyboard, and smile as they hear the fakery.

I am disgusted by this vulgar distortion of sound and acoustics.

So do you consider it vulgar to use samples of instrument unless one can play that instrument ? Can you play every instrument in the orchestra, or do you just restrict your use of samples just to the ones that you can play, for fear of being vulgar ?

"Disgusted" is a pretty strong word, and I don't think you really mean it. You might not like the sound or the idea ... but you're not disgusted.[/b]

Well, I have to say that I am very impressed with what I've heard from synful and am considering using it instead of VSL performance/pro. Why? Not because I think it sounds quite as good yet... but because it is *SO* much easier to compose using. I can do without the most convincing representation if I can compose easily.
THis is something I've been after for years... virtual instruments played by virtual players who apply their own skill to your piece without you having to micro-manage them.
I am very excited about this technology and hope - selfishly - that it doesn take off. These sample libraries are getting stupidly large now...

@jbm said:

hmmm... I don't really...

I found a couple of .pdfs I downloaded, at some point -- try these:

http://rubato-music.com/Media/Serra_SMS_97.pdf

http://rubato-music.com/Media/cardle_CMPC.pdf

I don't know if I can really leave these up, since I don't have any rights over them. But they were freely available when I downloaded them, so it shouldn't be a problem. It's funny... you'll notice that the first one is from way back in 97, and actually outlines the general type of synthesis used in Synful.

Anyway, there's much more out there... just Google!

J.

ps - check out this little bit of madness, while you're at it:

http://www.rubato-music.com/Media/leven.mp3

no... there's no Synful-ness in there, just pure VSL!

I have to say this piece sounds more fake than the pieces on the synful site...

Interesting posts coming now...

hehe, kind of funny to me, Nick, that you just said "real"... I guess that means "the music irritated the hell out of me, but the performance was convincing". [;)]
I'm not offended, though. I like that piece very much. Though I do hope you listened to the whole thing, and gave it a chance to move you... it's actually quite a beautiful piece, by the end.

William. I'm a little confused by your being "disgusted" with these technologies. I have to say that it seems a little harsh... But maybe you're just sitting on the far side of the line between representation and invention. But if what you're saying is well-founded, then it would presumably be an adequate musical endeavor for me to simply arrange all the samples in a sequence, and play them back, one after another... If that sounds absurd to you, then it stands to reason that the samples, in and of themselves, are not (yet) art... It is in combination that they come to life. A musical whole.

For me, if someone could find a way of completely atomizing the library, so that whichever sample best represented the musical idea I was after would be used when called for, that would be sheer perfection! Total flexibility is what I'm after. The ability to realize whatever musical idea I have to its utmost expressive potential. That's it. Obviously, we differ. And that's a good thing. We'll have to let VSL figure it out from there! [;)]

cheers,

J.

Really [paynterr]? You find this more "fake" than the Synful stuff? For me, the problem with the Synful pieces is in the staccato notes -- they really sound like truncated long notes, to me...

But I suppose it makes sense, considering the exaggerated use of ostinati -- the samples are literally repeated, in close proximity, a number of times. Maybe that's not what you're talking about... I don't know. Can you be more specific? To me, these instruments sound pretty real, but then, this is only my composing mock-up. So it's very hard for me to hear it objectively...

J.

okay, paynterr.

I just listened to it at low volume, and I have to admit that I know what you mean. To be quite honest, it seems to me that it is the result of a disparity between the original recorded volume of each sample, and the perceived amplitude of those samples in the final mix. Maybe some sort of compression could overcome this problem in the mix, but I'm not so sure. To me, it seems almost as though samples should all be recorded at an absolute amplitide, so that the natural differences in amplitude between the various instruments could be communicated directly to the listener. No more normalization during mastering!
I don't know if this would help, but I think it might...

J.

http://www.synful.com/index.htm

listening to the demos
I suspect the string quartet demo to be a real string quartet.
What do you think [*-)]:

@paynterr said:

Well, I have to say that I am very impressed with what I've heard from synful and am considering using it instead of VSL performance/pro. Why? Not because I think it sounds quite as good yet... but because it is *SO* much easier to compose using. I can do without the most convincing representation if I can compose easily.
THis is something I've been after for years... virtual instruments played by virtual players who apply their own skill to your piece without you having to micro-manage them.
I am very excited about this technology and hope - selfishly - that it doesn take off. These sample libraries are getting stupidly large now...

I agree. If you go to Sanctus Angelus website, there are more than a few little demos by composers (some reasonably well known too) trying their hand at this interesting new program. And it IS very easy to get ideas down. That "delay performance" tool seems to analyse the playing style and matches it. Without it, yes the samples or patches sound a little stiff. But press that button and you get smooth legatos, arcos, staccatos, etc. I don't think anyone is debating whether it's better than VSL though. VSL is beatiful. There isn't anything like it out there. And it's worth the money, every cent.

But to play devil's advocate for a second, say a person just wants a reasonable approximation of a sketch they wrote on say Finale. They import their file into Sonar, Logic or Cubase and boot up Synful. Without much finessing, they get a pretty darn good rendering of their piece. I know most conductor's or small ensembles appreciate having some kind of audio reference of a piece they've been given to play. I am going to keep my eyes and ears open to the developments in the genesis of Synful because it very well might be something to be reckoned with down the line.

@jbm said:

Really [paynterr]? You find this more "fake" than the Synful stuff? For me, the problem with the Synful pieces is in the staccato notes -- they really sound like truncated long notes, to me...

But I suppose it makes sense, considering the exaggerated use of ostinati -- the samples are literally repeated, in close proximity, a number of times. Maybe that's not what you're talking about... I don't know. Can you be more specific? To me, these instruments sound pretty real, but then, this is only my composing mock-up. So it's very hard for me to hear it objectively...

J.

Don't get me wrong, I liked the piece, but a well recorded sample lib like VSL could sound more fake, more easily than, say, this new synful tool. Why? Well, because synful creates what is essentially a unique sound with a each play of the key, it is a lot easier to get rid of the machine gun effect.
Although I agree that the quality of VSL is far superior, it cannot match the stitching together of notes that synful manages, therefore the quality can quickly give way to the expressiveness (or something like that) so that synful sounds more real.
I must admit, I love the idea of being able to have a single track per instrument/player in the orchestra and just letting them get on with playing the music I've written, me directing them roughly in the direction of how loud to play etc. but generally leaving the 'performance' up to them. ANd I'd like to see this work for ensembles too. Why not make ensembles from individual instruments, making them as large or small as you want. Follow the real-world analogies. You want 8 horns, then use 8 instruments. YOu want 50 string players, then there you go. It also means that when you split the orchestra, you don't have the problems you have at the moment. ANd since it is a case of cut-and-paste when it comes to giving them something to play (using a few random settings on each track to ensure they are slightly different to each other).
Compare this with the ever-increasing sample library size of VSL. This is probably out of place on VSL, but since I've already given them by 3.5k sterling...
Interestingly enough, I've never written as little music since getting VSL. THis is partly a function of using Halion and converting the samples, partly a function of Halion being buggy, but mainly a function of just having too much there in my face, too much choice. I think VSL was probably a mistake for me.
I am an IT Architect by profession and I hate to have to program my music too. That's my day job, not my hobby and that is what it feels like what with having to have multiple tracks just for the same legato instrument, not to mention multiple other tracks for other articulations, all loading into memory. For me, the complexity of VSL and the sheer choices I am given (not to mention having to run performance tool out of the DAW) is just too much hassle and actually puts me off using it.
There has to be a better way and I believe this is it... after all, some of these instruments are not that complicated to model, especially if you can do what convolusion reverbs do, that is sample the characteristics of the instrument rather than the actual notes.
Just my thoughts at the end of the year...
Happy new year to all here... and give a little thought and money to the SE Asia crisis if you can.