I think he´s perfectly right, Paul.

..

No, it´s absolutely not based on any academic view. Just look how music is evolving around you. Music is just an every day companion, it has almost no artistic function anymore in every days life. Concert music is certainly dying. There is film music, sure, but this already is companion music.

I´m NOT talking of any mastery or anything. For todays people, there is hardly any relevant expression anymore possible which can be transported entirely through pure music. The Beatles couldn´t be that succesful anymore today, because people wouldn´t care. People don´t connect their idendity anymore with music.

So how will be state for absolute music in fifty years? Probably even less. And Satie is the one who gave the ideologic basis for forgetting music as an independent art form. He was the one who is 500 years ahead. Try to imagine Philip Glass without Satie, not possible. Try to imagine Techno without Satie, not possible. Try to imagine todays radio without Satie, not possible.

OK, maybe these music styles would exist also without Satie, they´re not refering consciously to him, but imagine a musicologist in fifty years. He will analyze the path backwards from his contemporary music surrounding. And all those great masters like Ligeti or Vaugh Williams or The Beatles or whoever will be interesting branches with loose ends. But he will be able to make a straight line from him to Satie. So Satie will be the one featured as the most important figure for them in fifty years.

Sure, controversial, but highly convincing.

Interesting points, Mathis.

But I don't understand your statement that music is no longer connected to identity. I think it still is, it's just that it's also become inextricably tied into fashion (at least on a popular level), so it becomes difficult to make distinctions. What about hip-hop and rap? In fact, it could be argued that music has done little else BUT exert a sort of identity-producing power -- so that the social groups of today are almost created by music, not the other way round. And I think it would be a mistake to suggest that this has nothing to do with the music itself. Anyway, maybe I just didn't get what you were driving at...

I also don't think "absolute" music is dying. I think rather, as I (sort of, almost) mentioned above, that listeners are simply becoming more accustomed to music that moves without the familiar forward motion of melody or harmonic progression. This obviously alters the time-image significantly, which also alters the mode of attention required to appreciate such music. What listeners are enjoying IS this shifted mode of attention. And I see no reason why this shouldn't be considered "socially relevant" – I mean, it could very easily be seen to reflect a social universe where time, space, value, and responsibility have all been turned upside-down by technology. The musical mono-narrative we are accustomed to is losing its relevance, perhaps, but not music itself. Whether this will ultimately kill concert music or not, I can't say. But it certainly is forcing all us concert music composers to re-think what we're doing in relation to the specific venue where we imagine our works existing. This is partly why I brought up the idea of "VSL Records", which fell on completely deaf ears (in another forum). It seems to me that there is most definitely an audience (or a potential audience) for virtual acoustic music. It is not the concert hall, for obvious reasons, and it shouldn't be reduced to simply backing up a storyline and a moving image. Rather, it ought to become a new venue for one-on-one musical contemplation. Cycling74 made their own label, so why not VSL? Anyway, nobody seems to get the relevance of that idea... bummer.

Your points, however, about Satie are very clear, and I agree in that context. In general, I think it's pretty useless to speculate on who the most important or influential composers will be since, with any luck, history will prove us all wrong!

J.

Hey guys, don't get me wrong about Goldsmith. Look, here's an example of a piece I sketched out on EWQLSO Silver last summer. Now does this sound like John Williams or Goldsmith?

http://forums.keyfax.com/user-files/123271-Preparations%20(AVP).mp3">http://forums.keyfax.com/user-files/123271-Preparations%20(AVP).mp3

JBM

I suggested that idea of VSL records long ago - in the dark ages of this Forum. That's why I didn't respond. Obviously I agree with you, it would be very good. But the problem is VSL is a little bit busy doing a sample library. Running a record company is a bit too much to do in addition. YOU should start this record company!

Mathis -

I agree completely with you. I think Satie is the most innovative, significant composer because he changed the entire nature of what a composer was trying to do. I have all of his works and think now - because of him - it is inconceivable to do music in any other way. Of course I may seem to have strayed from this to an extent, but even my symphony is done in a way that was influenced by him. Even though I may defend it, I am essentially disconnected from the nature of romanticism prior to Satie (i.e. R. Strauss) in form, harmonic progression and orchestration and probably should never have called anything I do romantic anyway. But that is past work anyway, and what I am now trying to do is something much simpler. In this I find a great inspiration in Satie. He dared to do something simple, which is a thousand times harder than complexity.

@jbm said:

But I don't understand your statement that music is no longer connected to identity. I think it still is, it's just that it's also become inextricably tied into fashion (at least on a popular level), so it becomes difficult to make distinctions. What about hip-hop and rap? In fact, it could be argued that music has done little else BUT exert a sort of identity-producing power -- so that the social groups of today are almost created by music, not the other way round. And I think it would be a mistake to suggest that this has nothing to do with the music itself. Anyway, maybe I just didn't get what you were driving at...

yes, you´re right about that, I was thinking about that, too, when I was going to bed. But still I have the strong feeling that there is a difference to yesterdays identification. Maybe this todays identification is more about the the aura, the label, whereas some decades ago musicians as well as audience were naturally positive that music itself could change the world.
But I´m sounding like an old wrack now. Sure, music history books aren´t important actually. I just felt I have to make a strong statement about something completely different. As usual... [8-)]

To bring the Satie thing to a more practical level, I think he IS of great relevance, like Bill said. We live in a time in which, when we look at music material, literally everything is done. You can´t distinguish yourself anymore with inventing or choosing certain musical sounds.
What IS of great relevance is form. And that´s where Satie shows his brilliance. Repeating a boring phrase of music 834 times IS a statement you have to deal with. Like after ripping the canvas or presenting a plain pissoir like it is you HAD to rethink your form of presentation. You can´t just paint some nice motive anymore.
And for all of us who are striving for the third Vienna school I think he is relevant. I mean, when he uses the choir in this totally strange "Messe de pauvres" for just one minute or so after half an hour of weird waiting then this is certainly an ideologic basis for using a fifty piece bassoon section out of the sudden in an orchestral context.

Bill, you must have an AMAZING music collection. How many CDs to you own?

Yes, Mathis, that is the main question in our time: form. Whether simple or complex, consonant or dissonant, acoustic or electronic, it's how the material is presented in time that matters most. That's the only thing which still seems somehow to be insufficiently explored... or maybe it's just that it's the one thing that still offers an infinitude of possibilities. After all, it really IS possible to find an infinite variety of forms, even if there are only so many chords, scales, voicings, cadences, and so on.


William. You sound a little irritated about the VSL Records thing. Are you? I hope not. I mean, I was only partly serious about it when I first brought it up... It is a good idea, though.
Anyway, I would be careful about stating that simplicity is "1000 times easier than complexity". I understand what you're saying, but making broad statements like that always begs for a thousand exceptions. Complexity can be every bit as difficult to achieve as simplicity, it's just a matter of what you're trying to do, and what your level of sensitivity is to the needs of the work. I've been deeply inspired by both Wolfgang Rihm on the one hand, and Arvo Part on the other. Really, both simplicity and complexity can be either phenomenally difficult, or astonishingly easy. That's what always excites me about composition: one day it's as easy as breathing, the next day it's like extracting your own molars with a pair of vise grips!

cheers,

J.

[..

dco,

Of course there is influence from the concert hall to the theatre. Planets draws fro Varese's Arcana no doubt. The difference being that there are innovations is Planets not found in Arcana: several in fact. The writing to picture in that film is absolutely perfect. In both composition and insight into the visual message and emotion is where you have the genius of JG. Even if JW where JG's equal as a composer JG has a far greater gift cinematically. Only Hermann and perhaps North are in the same league imho.

Yes, we all know about North and Steetcar and the beginning of the modern era in film score. Also Rosenman's 12 tone technique. But those guys were not dominating film in the 60's 70's and 80's.

To me on a composition level I hear things reduced to there basic elements be they 4 part or whatever. I still maintain that Goldsmith is as good as they come in that respect and that Williams is a major talent but would never "make it" as a pure composer. It seems Esa Peka Salonen (LA Phil) regards Goldsmith in the same way.

Dave Connor

Dave, I'm not arguing the point about Williams' concert prowess or lack thereof with you. I believe he was a session pianist and jazz arranger in his early days. Did a good job of it too.

But I don't think Goldsmith was any stronger a composer of concert works. I saw him in concert up here in Toronto in 1990, something I really happy I had to opportunity to see. It was wonderful to hear his ST:TMP theme (although the horns blew that big intervalic leap) or Alien. But I never cared for the way he did concert arrangements into suites of his film scores. I wanted to hear an actual cue from PAPILLON or WIND AND THE LION or BOYS FROM BRAZIL. When I saw Williams in Pittsburgh a year ago, he had obviously re-worked some of his pieces too, but they still came off the same way as they have been presented in the films.

Ultimately, this is about preference. A composer friend of mine loves ST:TMP to death. I like it a lot but I would take Empire Strikes Back over it any day of the week (not the film- both I think are substandard crap actually). He attempted to try to convince me that Star Trek's score works more organically or is more fundamental to the storyline than Empire. To me, having also studied film history/theory/production, that's just a massive rationalization. And there's the difference.

I can separate what I LIKE from what is objectively better (if there is such a thing as pure objectivity but then again that's an ontological debate best left for another time). Example: I love First Blood a heck of a lot more than Raiders of the Lost Ark. I saw both films as a kid and loved them both equally. But as I got older, something about First BLood stayed with me while Raiders faded in interest. The scores are both very good, if not exceptional. But I love listening to "Over the Edge" with its fervent string figures, dynamic cross-rhythms, and clear, economic orchestration more than the infamous "Truck Chase" from Raiders. Perhaps it's because of the reasons you have outline in this thread. But I don't marginalize Williams' efforts to elevate Goldsmith's.

dco,

I think all artists have preferences that don't reflect the highest level of achievement. I can understand someone liking Empire over ST (including the score) because they simply find it more enjoyable. We just disagree about Goldsmiths gifts while agreeing about Williams immense talent. You're actually the only person I've ever heard state that Williams is superior in compositional ability. Goldsmith has exceeded him in so many different styles and conventions that people are just in awe of the guy (at least in the industry here.) Williams is a beloved musical personality who has ventured now and then from his base but just doesn't have Goldsmiths incredible cannon of work - but who does?

This is not marginalizing JW. I love the guy and admire him totally as a musician (don't know the man.) He has been unfairly criticized out of petty jealousy. I'm not in that camp: he's great! I just don't have him down as maybe the best composer who ever scored a film.

Dave Connor

Fair enough Dave.

On another topic, I hope you and your family had a great Christmas!

dco,

We did have a very nice Christmas. I wish you the same and more in the coming year.

Dave

@dpcon said:

dco,

We did have a very nice Christmas. I wish you the same and more in the coming year.

Dave

Thanks! I'm looking forward to more inspired discussions about music.

Wow,

I just read this entire post - bloody riot!

I will now pontificate on a few points.

1. Yes Andrew Lloyd Weber is a dreadful writer who has a genius for banality.

2. Yes I hope he reads this.

3. Yes it's okay to call a genius a genius.

4. Yes there are pompous academics who criticize out of bitterness.

5. Yes there gifted composers working in Universities.

6. Yes film composers borrow from other composers (some steal.)

7. Yes William is human but we're still waiting for the results on Evan.

Dave Connor

Happy New Year to a pretty sharp group of musicians.

Dave,

LOL

Evan

P.S. This thread turned into a MONSTER and I haven't found the time to read it anymore. I wish I had the time becuase it's been "a riot", but I am working on a bunch of things right now.

Evan,

Not to worry. I think it's breathed it's last.

If I was to continue I would talk about the coincidence that the two films my brother (USC film school grad now producing in TV) were Logans Run and The Incredibles. I can only say that if The Incredibles is considered a brilliant score than what in heavens name is Goldsmiths Logan's Run? I have never seen a filmed helped (made really) by the score to that extent. The main title which contains a perfect segue from orchestral to electronic is a wonder. The score that follows is completely remarkable.

I must assume that The Incedilbes score became fantasic after the first 15 minutes (all I saw) because it was only a standard sort of jazz approach that didn't seem to contain any originality. Logans on the other hand was a stunning display of film scoring and musical virtuosity.

Dave Connor

Evan,

Not to worry. I think it's breathed it's last.

If I was to continue I would talk about the coincidence that the two films my brother (USC film school grad now producing in TV) were Logans Run and The Incredibles. I can only say that if The Incredibles is considered a brilliant score than what in heavens name is Goldsmiths Logan's Run? I have never seen a filmed helped (made really) by the score to that extent. The main title which contains a perfect segue from orchestral to electronic is a wonder. The score that follows is completely remarkable.

I must assume that The Incedilbes score became fantasic after the first 15 minutes (all I saw) because it was only a standard sort of jazz approach that didn't seem to contain any originality. Logans on the other hand was a stunning display of film scoring and musical virtuosity.

Dave Connor

This score is definately a great example of this genre... the only problem is that this genre is SPY not Superhero... I was hoping for a great superhero score but the only thing I kept thinking was 007. Very good on its own... does not support the movie though.