Dave, I'm not arguing the point about Williams' concert prowess or lack thereof with you. I believe he was a session pianist and jazz arranger in his early days. Did a good job of it too.
But I don't think Goldsmith was any stronger a composer of concert works. I saw him in concert up here in Toronto in 1990, something I really happy I had to opportunity to see. It was wonderful to hear his ST:TMP theme (although the horns blew that big intervalic leap) or Alien. But I never cared for the way he did concert arrangements into suites of his film scores. I wanted to hear an actual cue from PAPILLON or WIND AND THE LION or BOYS FROM BRAZIL. When I saw Williams in Pittsburgh a year ago, he had obviously re-worked some of his pieces too, but they still came off the same way as they have been presented in the films.
Ultimately, this is about preference. A composer friend of mine loves ST:TMP to death. I like it a lot but I would take Empire Strikes Back over it any day of the week (not the film- both I think are substandard crap actually). He attempted to try to convince me that Star Trek's score works more organically or is more fundamental to the storyline than Empire. To me, having also studied film history/theory/production, that's just a massive rationalization. And there's the difference.
I can separate what I LIKE from what is objectively better (if there is such a thing as pure objectivity but then again that's an ontological debate best left for another time). Example: I love First Blood a heck of a lot more than Raiders of the Lost Ark. I saw both films as a kid and loved them both equally. But as I got older, something about First BLood stayed with me while Raiders faded in interest. The scores are both very good, if not exceptional. But I love listening to "Over the Edge" with its fervent string figures, dynamic cross-rhythms, and clear, economic orchestration more than the infamous "Truck Chase" from Raiders. Perhaps it's because of the reasons you have outline in this thread. But I don't marginalize Williams' efforts to elevate Goldsmith's.
But I don't think Goldsmith was any stronger a composer of concert works. I saw him in concert up here in Toronto in 1990, something I really happy I had to opportunity to see. It was wonderful to hear his ST:TMP theme (although the horns blew that big intervalic leap) or Alien. But I never cared for the way he did concert arrangements into suites of his film scores. I wanted to hear an actual cue from PAPILLON or WIND AND THE LION or BOYS FROM BRAZIL. When I saw Williams in Pittsburgh a year ago, he had obviously re-worked some of his pieces too, but they still came off the same way as they have been presented in the films.
Ultimately, this is about preference. A composer friend of mine loves ST:TMP to death. I like it a lot but I would take Empire Strikes Back over it any day of the week (not the film- both I think are substandard crap actually). He attempted to try to convince me that Star Trek's score works more organically or is more fundamental to the storyline than Empire. To me, having also studied film history/theory/production, that's just a massive rationalization. And there's the difference.
I can separate what I LIKE from what is objectively better (if there is such a thing as pure objectivity but then again that's an ontological debate best left for another time). Example: I love First Blood a heck of a lot more than Raiders of the Lost Ark. I saw both films as a kid and loved them both equally. But as I got older, something about First BLood stayed with me while Raiders faded in interest. The scores are both very good, if not exceptional. But I love listening to "Over the Edge" with its fervent string figures, dynamic cross-rhythms, and clear, economic orchestration more than the infamous "Truck Chase" from Raiders. Perhaps it's because of the reasons you have outline in this thread. But I don't marginalize Williams' efforts to elevate Goldsmith's.
