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I know this has been discussed to death on the Film Score Monthly board, but why is it that Goldsmith fans have a tendency to slight Williams works? In my opinion, Williams might not be the innovator that GOldsmith or Herrmann is, but in terms of pure musical composition, the guy can write better than anyone working in the film industry. I always found Goldsmith's harmonic tapestry to be a bit overtly triadic. Williams, because of his jazz roots, employs more harmonic extensions and much more interesting modulations. Also, his grasp of chromatic leading tones and counterpoint far exceed the average Hollywood film composer these days- mostly because he still writes everything at a piano and in his head.
This leads me to the one danger of all this wonderful technology (and something Evan broached in a post on FSM): writing at a keyboard constrains one. It's very difficult to escape to idiomatic tendencies that oft accompany writing on a keyboard. A stringed or reed instrument behaves a lot differently in performance and the phrasing is totally endemic to those intruments. Obviously the fine folks at VSL have come closest to bridging the gap with their performance tool- the legato feature in particular just floors me. In some ways, the patches almost respond as if they were modelled and not sampled. Very clever. But I still hear loads of people who will play a flute line on a keyboard that sounds exactly like that: a guy playing a line from a keyboard with no idea how much air a flutist uses or how long he/she can hold a note. Same applies to brass although non-looped brass (like I use from Project SAM) help or almost force the composer who prefers using a keyboard to play in lines to think in terms of phrasing because the note won't go on forever.
Obviously, we're living in a time where there has been a huge democratisation in the area of composition. Back when I was studying music, I had to labour through ink conductor's scores (which were an additional pain in the ass because I'm left handed). There was no Finale or Sibelius where one could hit a button and their score gets transposed instantly. I used Passport Encore and that still required a knowledge of transposed instruments, ranges, techniques, etc.
Yeah, I totally got off topic again. BAck to Williams. Evan, I prefer not to compare Williams to Goldsmith as they had very different styles and approaches toward film scoring. But I do tend to like WIlliams' work out of the context of the film much more than Goldmsith's music. Just a preferance. And I take issue with one of your comments about how any one of us including your mother, could write as well as WIlliams if given enough time. I don't know many composers, concert or otherwise that do write at his calibre. And Williams is still pushing himself in different directions even at 70+ years. Minority Report and A.I. are two of my favorites of his. Both different from what he wrote in the '70's. And let's not forget about beauties like Angela's Ashes. it would have been so easy for him to write celtic music for the Irish tenor of the film. Yet he choose a more Vaughan WIlliams/English folk modal route.
Let's not slight one of the best composers of the late 20th century. Save that for twits like Andrew Lloyd Weber.
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I agree with that defense of John Williams. He is not an innovator like Herrmann, his style is not as wide ranging and all-encompassing as Goldsmith, and his musical invention is not as brilliant thematically as John Barry or David Raksin or Alex North. However he is an expert musician, whose enormous knowledge and skill allowed him to create a recognizable (though sickeningly imitated) style with elements derived from the post romantic tradition as well as many ecletic modern influences. You are very right to mention the contrapuntal aspect. It is one of his greatest strengths, and derives in somewhat simpler form from R. Strauss's intricate mastery of lines. But also - unlike James Horner - Williams' influences are absorbed into original material. In Horner's case the material itself is lifted whole cloth - sometimes with orchestration intact - from concert music.
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Oh yes, definitely! Horner I have no respect for. He pillages everything that isn't nailed down. He seems to favor ripping off Prokofiev and Shostakovich primarily although that hasn't stopped him from lifting Part, Vaughan Williams, Ligeti, amoung others.
As for current film composers, there seems to be less and less really great people writing for film. Goldenthal was the last "new" composer that floored me. BAck in the early '90's, he could do no wrong in my eyes (er ears). I LOVE his Cobb score and recommend that everyone check out this underrated masterpiece. Unlike his seminal ALIEN3 score, which tends to be a little harsh, COBB encompassed both modernist and late Romantic idioms, mostly the harmonic language of Mahler's. Listen to "Homecoming" and you'll think you've discovered a lost movement of Gustav-baby. But unlike Horner, it's not a rip off. Goldenthal writes in the style of Mahler.
Oh, you know, I totally forgot about Gabriel Yared. Shame on me. This fellow is capable of writing truly amazing music. His rejected Troy score is one of the strongest works of music written for the film medium that I've heard in ages. Every track has an underlying connotive narrative and a music structure that demands repeated listenings. It's an awesome score that I hope someday sees a commercial release.
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My 0.02,
When I was a lowly freshman at the unheard of University of Buffalo, my first contact with the music department was through Alexander Schneider who was in residence with the famed 'Budapest String Quartet' (Joseph Roisman, Mischa Schneider, Boris Kroyt, and Alexander Schneider'). They were all 'professors' and great guys - over a period of 3 years, we consumed tons of pizza and burgers at 3AM, just talking about music, having lots of laughs and just hanging out and listening to 'jazz'. They were followed by 'Professors' Aaron Copland, Ned Rorem and Morton Subotnik - each and every one displaying infinitely less ego and pompousity than I've seen displayed on these pages. Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth!
BTW, Evan, I was privileged to meet your dad in NY on three occasions years ago - he fit into the above category. Never have I met a nicer or more talented man.
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@drg said:
My 0.02,
- each and every one displaying infinitely less ego and pompousity than I've seen displayed on these pages. Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth!
I'm a little slow. What pompousity do you refer to?
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@drg said:
How about this for a starter?
"...Let's not slight one of the best composers of the late 20th century. Save that for twits like Andrew Lloyd Weber."
Okay perhaps that was a little gruff but we're talking amoungst ourselves here about composers who couldn't care less about our discourse much less ones who will ever read this forum.
By contrast sir, you have seen fit to criticize people who will actually read your comments.
As for Lloyd Weber, well, I don't turn to his scores to learn how to be a better orchestrator or composer. I do have some conductor's scores of Goldsmith and Williams' film work and I find those tremendously educational. But that's just me.
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@drg said:
How do you know who is actually reading these pages?
I know you're not asking but, if you would ask me, I'd say the air is redolent of sour grapes.
"Der Ton macht die Musik."
Listen, I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you. Your profile indicates that you are an orchestrator/arranger. For that, you have my respect. I love to learn from other musicians. I bet you have some great advice and knowledge (I'm not being sarcastic either). And yes, I'm not omniscient- I don't know who's reading these posts, but I bet Lloyd Weber isn't one of them.
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@drg said:
After 30 years in this business, I still learn every day, even from guys like A.L.W. I respect everyone on this forum and avoid all pissing contests especially if I'm not wearing a raincoat and hat! Happy Holidays!
30 years! What types of projects have you worked on? Just curious.
I've been involved with music for hmmm, not quite as long, maybe 16 years professionally and 20 years altogether. The reason I love music so much is that there is always something to pick up, be it orchestration, harmony, counterpoint, whatever...
We obviously came up through a different school systems. I studied at York University in the late '80's with guys like David Mott, Pat LaBarber, Jim Tenney, Don Thompson, saw Dave Holland give an amazing bass clinic. Primarily jazz guys, musicians so amazingly adept at their chosen instrument it was bloody scary. I actually don't recall any of them being too arrogant regarding their own abilities but some did have an elitist mentality toward other forms of music (pop being the biggest casualty).
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yeah, really. Just think:@PaulR said:
I'm just watching a so -so 1978 film called The Last Great Train Robbery. But the score is by Jerry Goldsmith and I think he has to be the broadest filmscore writer out of everyone to be honest. The way he could change styles is quite amazing - this is very traditional writing on this film - and a year later - he writes the score to Alien. Pretty good stuff I would say -being able to do that.
The Burbs
Total Recall
Boys From Brazil
Under Fire
Planet Of The Apes
Alien
Patton
I also would lump in The Edge and Islands In The Stream, only becuase they are his best purely orchestral scores IMHO. But just look/listen how different each of those scores is, how they each sound like they are by the same composer, and yet how they each have a completely different approach.
Evan Evans
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Let's not slight one of the best composers of the late 20th century. Save that for twits like Andrew Lloyd Weber.
Don't forget Kenny G, and Hans Zimmer (one of the most gifted twits of our time).
Evan Evans
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BTW, Evan, I was privileged to meet your dad in NY on three occasions years ago - he fit into the above category. Never have I met a nicer or more talented man.
Thanks. He was a very understated person. I have a story that Lalo told me once while I was at his place in reciprocal lessons with him (Music and Computers respectively [;)] ). He said, on days where Bill and him where playing opposite sets, they'd sit together on break and not say a word, eating dinner or what not. Then suddenly at the exact same moment they would burst into fantastic and electrifying dialogue on EXACTLY the same subject as if they had been reading each other's minds the whole time. my dad had the kind of mild nature that seemingly allows one to connect to the essence of the Universe and ride the wave of the now as it occurred. It was almost like he didn't exist, that is how powerfully understated he was. And in his unexistance, he accomplished some of the greatest feats of the 20th century IMHO. And it was so understated that his contribution to mankind is still being discovered to this day.
Although many MANY MAAAAAAANY disagree with me, I feel the same way about Philip Glass. His music to me is WAAAAAAAAAAAAY ahead of it's time. YES, some of it is a bit uninspired, but if you are a true Philip Glass aficionado, I can assure you there are not only some gems in there, there is music that simply cannot be appreciated for another 500 years!
Certain people like that become legends. Their existence and tellings of their existence transcends reality and the basis of reality. It makes you think, maybe they WERE more than reality. [[:|]]
I love my father, I wish I spent time with him, especially musically, but all said and done, I probably spent less time with him than more than 99% of the people that knew him, and still I hold him in the highest regards, not simply because he was my father, but because he deserves to be called a legend for his contributions to mankind.
I'm fortunate enough to either have inherited enough musical ability or learned enough music, that I can recognize that about my own father. Becuase his contribution was subtle. Strong but unnoticed. And it takes a real deep feeler, or listener to understand just how special he was to all men. He's a hero, to be sure.
Evan Evans
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Evan, all valid points regarding Goldsmith/Williams. Believe me, I love Jerry's work a lot. From a film composer's perspective, he did have a very interesting way of interpretting what music a film needed and went ahead with it. It's been said that Williams responds to a film like your average patron and thus writes music that is his visceral reaction to it. Goldsmith had a more clinical way of getting into the guts of a film and scored it inside out.
I LOVE Islands in the Stream. Just gorgeous music. And First BLood is one of my favorite scores of all time. Same goes for PAPILLON (how brilliant is it that the first music cue comes in at 20 minutes into that film and with dissonant trumpets at that?).
I won't debate the originality of Goldsmith's application of music to film but I think he, like Williams had his influences and they showed up in various films, some more obviously than others. Poltergeist to me is an amalgam of Ravel with a smattering of Stravinsky. One of the cues in Total Recall sounds note-for-note of BArtok's Mirculous Mandarin. Goldsmith's references are obviously less discussed because his material was drawn from more modern composers like Bartok, Stravinsky, Varese, Berg, and such. Williams is writes in an idiom that recalls Strauss, with a dash of Prokofiev, Elgar, etc. Although I've heard some Barber in his pieces too and not the ubiquitous Adagio. More "Overture to the School of Scandal" and his Essays for Orchestra.
As for your father, yes, he's a legend and for good reason. I don't know a single person that hasn't heard of Bill Evans. Everytime I'd be playing at the piano in university, with closed chord inversions with little movement on the keyboard, someone would declare "hey, you're playing Bill Evans voicings". I mean, that's the legacy your dad left behind. A complete style of playing is attributed to him. A real musical genius. And we have had so few true genius' in our midst in the late 20th century.
As for minimalism. what do you think of John Adams? I had the pleasure to talk with him for a while after a concert he gave in Detroit a few years back. A very smart and friendly person. Considering his compositional prowess, I was impressed how interested he was in what I was writing at the time (although he didn't and still doesn't think much of film scoring or should I say current film composers in Hollywood).
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Wow, Evan! I didn't know you were Bill Evan's son? That's pretty cool!
Unfortunately, I can't agree with you about Phillip Glass. Sorry. To me, he's someone who hit upon something genuine back in the day, then hit on it again, and again, and again... I would like to see some true development in his recent (or somewhat recent) orchestral music, but I just find it kind of trite. This is only an opinion, though, so don't get too upset. Yes, his music will be around in 500 years, but I'm not sure it is in any way ahead of its time...(?) Come to think of it, I'm really not sure it was ever ahead of its time, but rather very much *of* its time. Mind you, I've always felt that this is much more important than place to be than "ahead", which is kind of an illusion anyway. (okay, I may be starting to convince myself that you're right about him... perhaps I just don't like it on a superficial level. hmmm...)
I'd imagine you'll feel inclined to prove me wrong, so hop to it!
J.
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"How do you know who is reading these pages?" - drg
Are you kidding?
It is my fondest wish that the people I criticize read this but unfortunately they will probably miss it.
By the way Evan, thanks for doing a zoological study on me. You know sir, I've never had that done to me. Of course I've been to the doctor, had blood tests, etc., but never been the subject of zoological studies.
Also, Phillipp Glass is the most egregious example of pretentious minimalist claptrap in the history of that lamentable movement. Five hundred years from now he won't be understood? You must be attempting irony. He could have been understood five hundred years AGO.
He also is responsible for the most arrogant and disgusting act of artistic sabotage since Ted Turner instituted colorization. He removed the soundtrack to Cocteau's "Beauty and the Beast" by George Auric - a French composer who wrote individual works superior to all of Phillip Glass's output put together - and substituted his own piece of shit for the music. This is a criminal act that should be punished with significant jail time.
