JBM

I shouldn't imply all academics, no. Of course there are some good composers at universities, etc. I am simply speaking of a disease inherent in the highly conventional world of academia (and it is so, though it pretends to be unconventional by means of fashion statements like deconstructionism).

However I am enraged by that damnable attitude of this composer who was mentioned - I have seen it over and over again. This man cannot know anything of film music, and I will guarantee his basic attitude is something to the effect that "everyone knows Bartok is a great composer. This film music is just pop stuff. Psycho sounds like Bartok. Threfore Psycho is a little insipid knockoff of Bartok." Those are the implied assumptions, in order to arrive at such a conclusion. This despite the fact that it is becoming apparent that Herrmann may be a more signifcant composer of the 2oth century than Bartok. And I have seen remarkable ignorance of the basics of film composing AS AN ART in highly intelligent, extremely knowledgeable and talented musical academics. They are CLUELESS about film music (outside of L.A.) and can get away with this in their insular little world. So do not assume I am talking off the top of my head. I have had a lot of encounters with this attitude and it is endemic.

BTW I am not anthropomorphic at all. I am actually a glowing, sentient cloud of charged particles.

William,

This whole thing has gotten way out of hand. So what the heck do we do now? LOL.

Evan Evans

@PaulR said:

Evan, stop being a big sulking baby. What's the matter with you? If you don't agree with something, just state it and give reasons. That's fair, isn't it? Come on, take it easy.

LOL! ok. [;)]

Evan Evans

@Another User said:

oh yeah, and I'm trying to figure out what the hell you mean, Evan, by "from an anthropomorphic perspective"... hurricane William? the wrath of William (aka Zeus)? The King of the pride had the fierceness of William. ...it's probably pretty interesting, whatever you're getting at...

LOL. Funny you picked up on that line, because it was one of the more abstract things I said. I didn't really think anyone would notice that. I meant, that from a perspective of learning about a subject by observation ... William is fascinating. And I was drawing parallel to how zoologists study various species. It was somewhat sarcastic, but also a bit of a truth. I do find William's unique perspective's fascinating, and his unnatural behavior comfortably predictable.

Evan Evans

..

I know this has been discussed to death on the Film Score Monthly board, but why is it that Goldsmith fans have a tendency to slight Williams works? In my opinion, Williams might not be the innovator that GOldsmith or Herrmann is, but in terms of pure musical composition, the guy can write better than anyone working in the film industry. I always found Goldsmith's harmonic tapestry to be a bit overtly triadic. Williams, because of his jazz roots, employs more harmonic extensions and much more interesting modulations. Also, his grasp of chromatic leading tones and counterpoint far exceed the average Hollywood film composer these days- mostly because he still writes everything at a piano and in his head.

This leads me to the one danger of all this wonderful technology (and something Evan broached in a post on FSM): writing at a keyboard constrains one. It's very difficult to escape to idiomatic tendencies that oft accompany writing on a keyboard. A stringed or reed instrument behaves a lot differently in performance and the phrasing is totally endemic to those intruments. Obviously the fine folks at VSL have come closest to bridging the gap with their performance tool- the legato feature in particular just floors me. In some ways, the patches almost respond as if they were modelled and not sampled. Very clever. But I still hear loads of people who will play a flute line on a keyboard that sounds exactly like that: a guy playing a line from a keyboard with no idea how much air a flutist uses or how long he/she can hold a note. Same applies to brass although non-looped brass (like I use from Project SAM) help or almost force the composer who prefers using a keyboard to play in lines to think in terms of phrasing because the note won't go on forever.

Obviously, we're living in a time where there has been a huge democratisation in the area of composition. Back when I was studying music, I had to labour through ink conductor's scores (which were an additional pain in the ass because I'm left handed). There was no Finale or Sibelius where one could hit a button and their score gets transposed instantly. I used Passport Encore and that still required a knowledge of transposed instruments, ranges, techniques, etc.

Yeah, I totally got off topic again. BAck to Williams. Evan, I prefer not to compare Williams to Goldsmith as they had very different styles and approaches toward film scoring. But I do tend to like WIlliams' work out of the context of the film much more than Goldmsith's music. Just a preferance. And I take issue with one of your comments about how any one of us including your mother, could write as well as WIlliams if given enough time. I don't know many composers, concert or otherwise that do write at his calibre. And Williams is still pushing himself in different directions even at 70+ years. Minority Report and A.I. are two of my favorites of his. Both different from what he wrote in the '70's. And let's not forget about beauties like Angela's Ashes. it would have been so easy for him to write celtic music for the Irish tenor of the film. Yet he choose a more Vaughan WIlliams/English folk modal route.

Let's not slight one of the best composers of the late 20th century. Save that for twits like Andrew Lloyd Weber.

I agree with that defense of John Williams. He is not an innovator like Herrmann, his style is not as wide ranging and all-encompassing as Goldsmith, and his musical invention is not as brilliant thematically as John Barry or David Raksin or Alex North. However he is an expert musician, whose enormous knowledge and skill allowed him to create a recognizable (though sickeningly imitated) style with elements derived from the post romantic tradition as well as many ecletic modern influences. You are very right to mention the contrapuntal aspect. It is one of his greatest strengths, and derives in somewhat simpler form from R. Strauss's intricate mastery of lines. But also - unlike James Horner - Williams' influences are absorbed into original material. In Horner's case the material itself is lifted whole cloth - sometimes with orchestration intact - from concert music.

Oh yes, definitely! Horner I have no respect for. He pillages everything that isn't nailed down. He seems to favor ripping off Prokofiev and Shostakovich primarily although that hasn't stopped him from lifting Part, Vaughan Williams, Ligeti, amoung others.

As for current film composers, there seems to be less and less really great people writing for film. Goldenthal was the last "new" composer that floored me. BAck in the early '90's, he could do no wrong in my eyes (er ears). I LOVE his Cobb score and recommend that everyone check out this underrated masterpiece. Unlike his seminal ALIEN3 score, which tends to be a little harsh, COBB encompassed both modernist and late Romantic idioms, mostly the harmonic language of Mahler's. Listen to "Homecoming" and you'll think you've discovered a lost movement of Gustav-baby. But unlike Horner, it's not a rip off. Goldenthal writes in the style of Mahler.

Oh, you know, I totally forgot about Gabriel Yared. Shame on me. This fellow is capable of writing truly amazing music. His rejected Troy score is one of the strongest works of music written for the film medium that I've heard in ages. Every track has an underlying connotive narrative and a music structure that demands repeated listenings. It's an awesome score that I hope someday sees a commercial release.

My 0.02,

When I was a lowly freshman at the unheard of University of Buffalo, my first contact with the music department was through Alexander Schneider who was in residence with the famed 'Budapest String Quartet' (Joseph Roisman, Mischa Schneider, Boris Kroyt, and Alexander Schneider'). They were all 'professors' and great guys - over a period of 3 years, we consumed tons of pizza and burgers at 3AM, just talking about music, having lots of laughs and just hanging out and listening to 'jazz'. They were followed by 'Professors' Aaron Copland, Ned Rorem and Morton Subotnik - each and every one displaying infinitely less ego and pompousity than I've seen displayed on these pages. Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth!

BTW, Evan, I was privileged to meet your dad in NY on three occasions years ago - he fit into the above category. Never have I met a nicer or more talented man.

@drg said:

My 0.02,

- each and every one displaying infinitely less ego and pompousity than I've seen displayed on these pages. Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth!

I'm a little slow. What pompousity do you refer to?

How about this for a starter?

"...Let's not slight one of the best composers of the late 20th century. Save that for twits like Andrew Lloyd Weber."

@drg said:

How about this for a starter?

"...Let's not slight one of the best composers of the late 20th century. Save that for twits like Andrew Lloyd Weber."

Okay perhaps that was a little gruff but we're talking amoungst ourselves here about composers who couldn't care less about our discourse much less ones who will ever read this forum.

By contrast sir, you have seen fit to criticize people who will actually read your comments.

As for Lloyd Weber, well, I don't turn to his scores to learn how to be a better orchestrator or composer. I do have some conductor's scores of Goldsmith and Williams' film work and I find those tremendously educational. But that's just me.

How do you know who is actually reading these pages?

I know you're not asking but, if you would ask me, I'd say the air is redolent of sour grapes.

"Der Ton macht die Musik."

@drg said:

How do you know who is actually reading these pages?

I know you're not asking but, if you would ask me, I'd say the air is redolent of sour grapes.

"Der Ton macht die Musik."

Listen, I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you. Your profile indicates that you are an orchestrator/arranger. For that, you have my respect. I love to learn from other musicians. I bet you have some great advice and knowledge (I'm not being sarcastic either). And yes, I'm not omniscient- I don't know who's reading these posts, but I bet Lloyd Weber isn't one of them.

After 30 years in this business, I still learn every day, even from guys like A.L.W. I respect everyone on this forum and avoid all pissing contests especially if I'm not wearing a raincoat and hat! Happy Holidays!

@drg said:

After 30 years in this business, I still learn every day, even from guys like A.L.W. I respect everyone on this forum and avoid all pissing contests especially if I'm not wearing a raincoat and hat! Happy Holidays!

30 years! What types of projects have you worked on? Just curious.

I've been involved with music for hmmm, not quite as long, maybe 16 years professionally and 20 years altogether. The reason I love music so much is that there is always something to pick up, be it orchestration, harmony, counterpoint, whatever...

We obviously came up through a different school systems. I studied at York University in the late '80's with guys like David Mott, Pat LaBarber, Jim Tenney, Don Thompson, saw Dave Holland give an amazing bass clinic. Primarily jazz guys, musicians so amazingly adept at their chosen instrument it was bloody scary. I actually don't recall any of them being too arrogant regarding their own abilities but some did have an elitist mentality toward other forms of music (pop being the biggest casualty).

@PaulR said:

I'm just watching a so -so 1978 film called The Last Great Train Robbery. But the score is by Jerry Goldsmith and I think he has to be the broadest filmscore writer out of everyone to be honest. The way he could change styles is quite amazing - this is very traditional writing on this film - and a year later - he writes the score to Alien. Pretty good stuff I would say -being able to do that.

yeah, really. Just think:

The Burbs
Total Recall
Boys From Brazil
Under Fire
Planet Of The Apes
Alien
Patton

I also would lump in The Edge and Islands In The Stream, only becuase they are his best purely orchestral scores IMHO. But just look/listen how different each of those scores is, how they each sound like they are by the same composer, and yet how they each have a completely different approach.

Evan Evans

@Another User said:

Let's not slight one of the best composers of the late 20th century. Save that for twits like Andrew Lloyd Weber.

Don't forget Kenny G, and Hans Zimmer (one of the most gifted twits of our time).

Evan Evans

@Another User said:

BTW, Evan, I was privileged to meet your dad in NY on three occasions years ago - he fit into the above category. Never have I met a nicer or more talented man.

Thanks. He was a very understated person. I have a story that Lalo told me once while I was at his place in reciprocal lessons with him (Music and Computers respectively [;)] ). He said, on days where Bill and him where playing opposite sets, they'd sit together on break and not say a word, eating dinner or what not. Then suddenly at the exact same moment they would burst into fantastic and electrifying dialogue on EXACTLY the same subject as if they had been reading each other's minds the whole time. my dad had the kind of mild nature that seemingly allows one to connect to the essence of the Universe and ride the wave of the now as it occurred. It was almost like he didn't exist, that is how powerfully understated he was. And in his unexistance, he accomplished some of the greatest feats of the 20th century IMHO. And it was so understated that his contribution to mankind is still being discovered to this day.

Although many MANY MAAAAAAANY disagree with me, I feel the same way about Philip Glass. His music to me is WAAAAAAAAAAAAY ahead of it's time. YES, some of it is a bit uninspired, but if you are a true Philip Glass aficionado, I can assure you there are not only some gems in there, there is music that simply cannot be appreciated for another 500 years!

Certain people like that become legends. Their existence and tellings of their existence transcends reality and the basis of reality. It makes you think, maybe they WERE more than reality. [[:|]]

I love my father, I wish I spent time with him, especially musically, but all said and done, I probably spent less time with him than more than 99% of the people that knew him, and still I hold him in the highest regards, not simply because he was my father, but because he deserves to be called a legend for his contributions to mankind.

I'm fortunate enough to either have inherited enough musical ability or learned enough music, that I can recognize that about my own father. Becuase his contribution was subtle. Strong but unnoticed. And it takes a real deep feeler, or listener to understand just how special he was to all men. He's a hero, to be sure.

Evan Evans

Evan, all valid points regarding Goldsmith/Williams. Believe me, I love Jerry's work a lot. From a film composer's perspective, he did have a very interesting way of interpretting what music a film needed and went ahead with it. It's been said that Williams responds to a film like your average patron and thus writes music that is his visceral reaction to it. Goldsmith had a more clinical way of getting into the guts of a film and scored it inside out.

I LOVE Islands in the Stream. Just gorgeous music. And First BLood is one of my favorite scores of all time. Same goes for PAPILLON (how brilliant is it that the first music cue comes in at 20 minutes into that film and with dissonant trumpets at that?).

I won't debate the originality of Goldsmith's application of music to film but I think he, like Williams had his influences and they showed up in various films, some more obviously than others. Poltergeist to me is an amalgam of Ravel with a smattering of Stravinsky. One of the cues in Total Recall sounds note-for-note of BArtok's Mirculous Mandarin. Goldsmith's references are obviously less discussed because his material was drawn from more modern composers like Bartok, Stravinsky, Varese, Berg, and such. Williams is writes in an idiom that recalls Strauss, with a dash of Prokofiev, Elgar, etc. Although I've heard some Barber in his pieces too and not the ubiquitous Adagio. More "Overture to the School of Scandal" and his Essays for Orchestra.

As for your father, yes, he's a legend and for good reason. I don't know a single person that hasn't heard of Bill Evans. Everytime I'd be playing at the piano in university, with closed chord inversions with little movement on the keyboard, someone would declare "hey, you're playing Bill Evans voicings". I mean, that's the legacy your dad left behind. A complete style of playing is attributed to him. A real musical genius. And we have had so few true genius' in our midst in the late 20th century.

As for minimalism. what do you think of John Adams? I had the pleasure to talk with him for a while after a concert he gave in Detroit a few years back. A very smart and friendly person. Considering his compositional prowess, I was impressed how interested he was in what I was writing at the time (although he didn't and still doesn't think much of film scoring or should I say current film composers in Hollywood).