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dco,

Of course there is influence from the concert hall to the theatre. Planets draws fro Varese's Arcana no doubt. The difference being that there are innovations is Planets not found in Arcana: several in fact. The writing to picture in that film is absolutely perfect. In both composition and insight into the visual message and emotion is where you have the genius of JG. Even if JW where JG's equal as a composer JG has a far greater gift cinematically. Only Hermann and perhaps North are in the same league imho.

Yes, we all know about North and Steetcar and the beginning of the modern era in film score. Also Rosenman's 12 tone technique. But those guys were not dominating film in the 60's 70's and 80's.

To me on a composition level I hear things reduced to there basic elements be they 4 part or whatever. I still maintain that Goldsmith is as good as they come in that respect and that Williams is a major talent but would never "make it" as a pure composer. It seems Esa Peka Salonen (LA Phil) regards Goldsmith in the same way.

Dave Connor

Dave, I'm not arguing the point about Williams' concert prowess or lack thereof with you. I believe he was a session pianist and jazz arranger in his early days. Did a good job of it too.

But I don't think Goldsmith was any stronger a composer of concert works. I saw him in concert up here in Toronto in 1990, something I really happy I had to opportunity to see. It was wonderful to hear his ST:TMP theme (although the horns blew that big intervalic leap) or Alien. But I never cared for the way he did concert arrangements into suites of his film scores. I wanted to hear an actual cue from PAPILLON or WIND AND THE LION or BOYS FROM BRAZIL. When I saw Williams in Pittsburgh a year ago, he had obviously re-worked some of his pieces too, but they still came off the same way as they have been presented in the films.

Ultimately, this is about preference. A composer friend of mine loves ST:TMP to death. I like it a lot but I would take Empire Strikes Back over it any day of the week (not the film- both I think are substandard crap actually). He attempted to try to convince me that Star Trek's score works more organically or is more fundamental to the storyline than Empire. To me, having also studied film history/theory/production, that's just a massive rationalization. And there's the difference.

I can separate what I LIKE from what is objectively better (if there is such a thing as pure objectivity but then again that's an ontological debate best left for another time). Example: I love First Blood a heck of a lot more than Raiders of the Lost Ark. I saw both films as a kid and loved them both equally. But as I got older, something about First BLood stayed with me while Raiders faded in interest. The scores are both very good, if not exceptional. But I love listening to "Over the Edge" with its fervent string figures, dynamic cross-rhythms, and clear, economic orchestration more than the infamous "Truck Chase" from Raiders. Perhaps it's because of the reasons you have outline in this thread. But I don't marginalize Williams' efforts to elevate Goldsmith's.

dco,

I think all artists have preferences that don't reflect the highest level of achievement. I can understand someone liking Empire over ST (including the score) because they simply find it more enjoyable. We just disagree about Goldsmiths gifts while agreeing about Williams immense talent. You're actually the only person I've ever heard state that Williams is superior in compositional ability. Goldsmith has exceeded him in so many different styles and conventions that people are just in awe of the guy (at least in the industry here.) Williams is a beloved musical personality who has ventured now and then from his base but just doesn't have Goldsmiths incredible cannon of work - but who does?

This is not marginalizing JW. I love the guy and admire him totally as a musician (don't know the man.) He has been unfairly criticized out of petty jealousy. I'm not in that camp: he's great! I just don't have him down as maybe the best composer who ever scored a film.

Dave Connor

Fair enough Dave.

On another topic, I hope you and your family had a great Christmas!

dco,

We did have a very nice Christmas. I wish you the same and more in the coming year.

Dave

@dpcon said:

dco,

We did have a very nice Christmas. I wish you the same and more in the coming year.

Dave

Thanks! I'm looking forward to more inspired discussions about music.

Wow,

I just read this entire post - bloody riot!

I will now pontificate on a few points.

1. Yes Andrew Lloyd Weber is a dreadful writer who has a genius for banality.

2. Yes I hope he reads this.

3. Yes it's okay to call a genius a genius.

4. Yes there are pompous academics who criticize out of bitterness.

5. Yes there gifted composers working in Universities.

6. Yes film composers borrow from other composers (some steal.)

7. Yes William is human but we're still waiting for the results on Evan.

Dave Connor

Happy New Year to a pretty sharp group of musicians.

Dave,

LOL

Evan

P.S. This thread turned into a MONSTER and I haven't found the time to read it anymore. I wish I had the time becuase it's been "a riot", but I am working on a bunch of things right now.

Evan,

Not to worry. I think it's breathed it's last.

If I was to continue I would talk about the coincidence that the two films my brother (USC film school grad now producing in TV) were Logans Run and The Incredibles. I can only say that if The Incredibles is considered a brilliant score than what in heavens name is Goldsmiths Logan's Run? I have never seen a filmed helped (made really) by the score to that extent. The main title which contains a perfect segue from orchestral to electronic is a wonder. The score that follows is completely remarkable.

I must assume that The Incedilbes score became fantasic after the first 15 minutes (all I saw) because it was only a standard sort of jazz approach that didn't seem to contain any originality. Logans on the other hand was a stunning display of film scoring and musical virtuosity.

Dave Connor

Evan,

Not to worry. I think it's breathed it's last.

If I was to continue I would talk about the coincidence that the two films my brother (USC film school grad now producing in TV) were Logans Run and The Incredibles. I can only say that if The Incredibles is considered a brilliant score than what in heavens name is Goldsmiths Logan's Run? I have never seen a filmed helped (made really) by the score to that extent. The main title which contains a perfect segue from orchestral to electronic is a wonder. The score that follows is completely remarkable.

I must assume that The Incedilbes score became fantasic after the first 15 minutes (all I saw) because it was only a standard sort of jazz approach that didn't seem to contain any originality. Logans on the other hand was a stunning display of film scoring and musical virtuosity.

Dave Connor

This score is definately a great example of this genre... the only problem is that this genre is SPY not Superhero... I was hoping for a great superhero score but the only thing I kept thinking was 007. Very good on its own... does not support the movie though.

But that's the brilliance of the score. It's not the same ol' heroic brass fanfares. I like that Giacchino went a different route. I think the music supports the film quite well especially since a good part of the film involves Mr. Incredible skulking around in enemy teritory like a spy.