I've now had time to listen to most of the new demos. There are some very good things there and I think that the whole production team should be congratulated.

I do have a few thoughts which (at the risk of being flamed) I will share:

I think that the layering of Solo Violin in Leia's theme mostly seems to work well. Where it doesn't work is on passages that are high, as I seem to hear too much solo violin, which suddenly makes the whole section seem small.

I tried to approach Schindler's List with an open mind, but I have come to the conclusion that I am never going to like the solo violin. I think that it is not the individual notes that don't work (for me) but the transitions. Part of the problem is that with the use of portamento (which in itself is good) leads to unconvincing string/timbre changes. This can also be a problem with the string section patches as well, but is much more pronounced when there is only one player.

The only real criticism is for the opening of Danse Macabre. I'm afraid that yet again it involves the solo violin...! The patch used for the opening section is totally wrong as it has vibrato. I know that you don't have non vibrato patches (something that would be very useful for the violin section armoury, particulary on fp notes) so I don't really know how you could programme this bit better, but it really doesn't work as it is.

DG

portamento and Schindler:

that's interesting, because I think Perlmann did this exactly to get different timbres. He always performed the first of the two repetitiv intervall changes on the same string (with portamento - it's much easier to play with portamento), the second on 2 different strings (without portamento).
So he does more or less the same we do, avoiding repetitiv sounding passages.


Dance macabre:

Only a few notes of that part passage do have vibrato, and I used them to get more randomness in this repetitiv passage. There are a lot of nonvibrato patches in the soloviolin, and I used all of them, but I wanted more different options.
Personally I realy don't care about such issues. If it sounds convincing to me, it's OK for me.


best
Herb

@herb said:

portamento and Schindler:

that's interesting, because I think Perlmann did this exactly to get different timbres. He always performed the first of the two repetitiv intervall changes on the same string (with portamento - it's much easier to play with portamento), the second on 2 different strings (without portamento).
So he does more or less the same we do, avoiding repetitiv sounding passages.


Dance macabre:

Only a few notes of that part passage do have vibrato, and I used them to get more randomness in this repetitiv passage. There are a lot of nonvibrato patches in the soloviolin, and I used all of them, but I wanted more different options.
Personally I realy don't care about such issues. If it sounds convincing to me, it's OK for me.


best
Herb

Hi Herb

I'm glad that there are non vibrato patches available for solo violin; I haven't really investigated that deeply, but I stand by the fact that the Danse opening is always played with open strings.

Regarding the Williams, you are correct about changing strings for variation of timbre. However, it's one of those things that being a violinist (in the past), I have too much knowledge [:)]

Please don't take any of what I've said as negative criticism, as it's not meant that way; I was just passing on my thoughts.

DG

@Peter Roos said:

[...]
Dietz,
You used the same impulse? What parameter(s) did you change for the three busses? Pre-delay only? Or did you also tweak the EQ-curves?

Peter

AudioEase offers three distances from the Konzerthaus-stage (from an audience-perspective). I abused them im that sense that I looked at them as they were different distances _from_ the audience, i.e. stege-depth. Not perfect, but better than nothing.

I always mix dry- and wet-signal, as not all IRs you find have the actual direct-signal recovered from the impulse. AudioEase keep them (that's why there is the "Mute Direct"-button in AltiVerb), Ernest Cholakis from NumericalSound OTOH skips the direct signal for his IRs (that's why the seem to be so much louder).

The predelay stayed untouched, I relied completely on the sonic signature of the IR. EQ is a must, though - somtimes just subtle enhancements, more often drastic reduction of ugly resonances.

/Dietz

"I have too much knowledge" - DG

It must be tough. I never had that problem myself.

Jesus Daryl, I sometimes wonder what's going on in your head. These are SAMPLES for Christ Sake. It's not real you know - it's real in the sample context, sure, but this endless fkg comparison with real players is becoming almost obsessional.

It's an ongoing developement, this business with samples and as time goes by, R&D in this field will make things even better as time goes on.

Best

PR

@PaulR said:

Jesus Daryl, I sometimes wonder what's going on in your head. These are SAMPLES for Christ Sake. It's not real you know - it's real in the sample context, sure, but this endless fkg comparison with real players is becoming almost obsessional.

It's an ongoing developement, this business with samples and as time goes by, R&D in this field will make things even better as time goes on.

Best

PR

I don't understand the problem. Of course I am comparing the samples with real players, otherwise there is no point for me. Trying to achieve the best one can is, by it's very nature, likely to be obsessive. Look at some of the things already in the VSL package; these would have been out of the question a few years ago, and anyone who asked for them would have been considered to be some sort of nutter.

As far as the ongoing development is concerned, if Herb wasn't keen on improving the sample situation, he would never have begun the VSL venture in the first place. Constructive criticism is one way to find out what needs to improved in future, and then it is possible to look for a solution. It looks as if I'm going to have to refrain from posting if nobody is interested in hearing my views [:(]

DG

I'm interested, please keep posting.
To compare with the real thing is the only "objective" leveling rule I have.

best
Herb

@DG said:

It looks as if I'm going to have to refrain from posting if nobody is interested in hearing my views [:(]

DG

Actually Daryl, I requested your company in the Dynamics thread earlier today, but you may have missed it. This is because of just what we're talking about here and your conducting expertise.
Of course I and everyone is interested in what you say. It's extremely interesting -it's just sometimes a softer approach - and before you say 'hark who's talking' -I would agree! [:D]

@PaulR said:

Actually Daryl, I requested your company in the Dynamics thread earlier today, but you may have missed it. This is because of just what we're talking about here and your conducting expertise.
Of course I and everyone is interested in what you say. It's extremely interesting -it's just sometimes a softer approach - and before you say 'hark who's talking' -I would agree! [:D]

Ok, I'll bite...

DG

I hope that this is isnt of-thread.
What about doing a mockup with J.Sibelius "Andante Festivo" ? A very nice piece, and I also think that it would have sounded really good with the VSL-sound
[:)]

Love the Mahler 5th demo. This was a very good approximation of the piece. Being a Mahler nut for 15 years and having owned 5 different versions of his symphonies, I am a real skeptic. But you did a great job!

Impressive - you have the complete symphonies in five performances? I have a number of complete runs of them but have not tallied them up. (It is difficult to see into my LP stacks these days.) My favorites are the Solti in general, though Ormandy and the Philadelphia's Second is of course the ultimate. Nothing else even comes close.

hi,
What is the process to create those demo ?
Are the VSL team use some Score Scanner system ? like SmartScore ?
do they play manually each part ...etc.?

thx
zGo

You take a music score, on paper, and feed it through a shredder. Then you take all the little pieces of paper, mash them up with some water, and pour the mix into the disc drive of a computer equipped with VSL samples. Wait about three minutes (six to seven on slower models) and you will then hear your music coming out the speakers, with rich, full expressive articulations and dynamics.

That sounds great, William.
I've to give it a try.

At the moment I'm working in a more conservative fashion:
Performing each instrument on the keyboard and recording midi track by midi track with my sequenzer programm (Cubase).

best
Herb

hmm, any chance to get Princess Leia midi file?[:)] I love to see it, and try how Opus handle it...

I've posted some midifiles in this topic (including Leia)

http://community.vsl.co.at/viewtopic.php?p=35865#35865

best
Herb

Thanks Herb!!! [H]

Goodness-- what can I say that hasn't already been said? Hats off to Herb and Dietz for the demos.

It's not only encouraging to hear the possibilities with VSL, but just the few tips and insights to preparing the sequences, what sounds were used, how it was EQ'd, etc., offers some great staring points.

I'm looking forward to Altiverb 5 (and MIR!!)-- but tell me:

... do you use Space Designer at all?

Congratulations--keep the demos coming!
JWL