@strawinsky said:

That's because the tuning is TOO perfect.In the high registers of a real section the tuning can be ,albeit momentarily,quite wild,especially on bigger intervalic leaps.

Yes I think that's a very good point actually.

With regard to the title of this thread 'Competition', actually a better name for it would have been 'Niche Markets' in my view. Each sample developer cannot be all things to all men, simply based on costs and man-power alone. You would wind up with massive trade-offs and then the frustration would really set in. The possiblities of how you sample individual sectons of orchestras, for example, I would think are absolutely endless. This business about Epic Strings is a little confusing from where I sit.

Can someone give me an example of what Epic Strings sounds like? What piece of music has Epic String sounds in it? Surely this is a misnoma! Are we talking about 'sound' or 'orchestration'. We covered the so-called Hollywood string sound ages ago and I thought it was generally agreed it was more to do with orchestration. For example, last night I watched Cape Fear with the great Bernard Herrmann's original score. Hardly what you would call Epic Strings, and anyway, the score doesn't work as well in this second version of the film. It almost sounds disjointed because of the way that Scorcese 'cut' and shot his version. It's good, but it's not as good as the original imo, and in this case a different score would have been more appropriate.

However, Robert De Niro had Epic teeth. He spent $5000 getting his teeth 'distressed' for the part and then $20,000 getting them put right again afterwards.

Now that's what I call Epic. [[;)]]

That's what I call toothache.

this is what i call epic strings imo :

http://annecywebtv.free.fr/mus/fditds.mp3

http://annecywebtv.free.fr/anm.mp3

And you can say everything, there is nothing else but violins, cellos/basses, and of course some brass, may be some woodwinds, but i doubt they take a large part in that strings sound
if somebody can achieve a violin sound like that with VSL so, tell us [:)]

Those cues have a nice sound. What are they?

The first one is largely a matter of a lot of divisi, and has a lot of instruments besides strings and some voices in it, so that adds to the fullness. I think you could get this sound with pure orchestration using VSL.

The second one with mainly strings is very full and rich sounding. An excellent mix obviously - clear, but with a huge amount of ambience. A lot of low end adds to the effect, aided by the timpani. This has some contrapuntal lines within which add to the size as well. There is also a shimmering surface of vibrato and portamento that becomes alternately audible over the large section uniformity which makes the sound very expressive. It is beautifully played. I agree this would be very difficult to emulate in samples - with any library!

Though the biggest, "Epic" strings sound I've ever heard is in Tchaikovsky: the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Symphonies - the Sixth especially. That is one of the most extreme, huge, and intense sounds of the string ensemble ever scored. Especially if played by an orchestra famous for its lush strings like the Philadelphia. Another famous one - Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings, played by a large ensemble as it often is. On those pieces, the size of the strings is achieved not only by scoring techniques or size of ensemble, but also by the simple musical expressiveness - the intensity of the actual musical emotion, which strings can bring out perhaps more than any other instruments.

If we can perform the first cue with VSL this is very good, i should give it a try but since i don't know the whole orchestration... [:)] this will be difficult.

And about the cues there are mainly modern film soundtracks, the first is a theme from one of the 5 star wars actually out ... i think it's from the return of the jedi or may be the empire strike back i can't remember exactly and the second comes from Gladiator soundtrack by hans zimmer.

The first is from Return of the Jedi. Luke fighting Vader ...

I beleive the last one is James Horner or Hans Zimmer

@Jean said:

Uhm, just HOW huge is the regular 'Hollywood' orchestra when it comes to the amount of players? is it that much bigger? I think the sound is influenced more by how it was recorded. Just look at Epic Horns, they had to experiment with the players' positions a lot (and the mics too probably) to get 'the' sound they wanted.

60 Strings:

18 1st Violins
16 2nd Violins
12 Violas
8 Cellos
6 Double Basses

So a unison Violins line is 34 Violins. This is the for the traditional big budget sized Hollywood orchestra. Often, just to make the recordings sound better, they add even MORE depending on the composition and composer's wishes. But certainly the above sizes are Goldsmith's and William's standards at the least.

Evan Evans

Actually this not very large by symphony orchestra standards. Just a normal complement for full orchestra. That's why symphony orchestras are going out of business these days.

"Huge" is actually more like what Berlioz conducted once: 1000 players. He used a sword to beat time.

By the way if you want true "Epic" string sound that blows Hans Zimmer and Little Jack Horner off the map, listen to the Chicago Symphony recording of Mahler's Eighth, the "Symphony of a Thousand" conducted by Solti. That is Epic Orchestra with Epic Choir. Compare that sound with anything ever done by any film composer - quite illuminating.

I heard Britten's Sea Interludes from Peter Grimes again recently.Astonishingly modern and filmic sounding.To the point that I could pick out several instances that Gerry Goldsmith MUST have heard.Really astounding stuff.

What do you think of this example?

www.nicklas-schmidt.com/demo/ee2nd.mp3

it's from Elgars 2nd symphony (Solti).

To me it's what expressive strings are all about..

@Another User said:

I wonder what Herb has in his sleev for Symphonic Cube?

1332387 Samples today (sample counter). Does it still increase those times ?

I read in the presentation : « will eventually comprise up to 1.5 million individual samples »

Come on ! Go back to work ! It’s not finish yet !



Seriously,


That QLSO announcement is a very good news.

It demonstrates that the orchestral sampling world is alive. Then VSL didn’t killed QLSO... so there is really a big market for those libraries...

It’s good for us, musicians. And for the VSL team too...


Nevertheless, I’d like to add this :

I don’t want to be provocative (not my style) , but the first advantage of VSL will probably be... GS3.

Six years ago Herb did a choice.

Dry sampling.

Was it an intuition ?

Since a big revolution appears. Convolution verb. Those tools which permit to get a such realistic sound that some times we just can’t do any difference with a natural sound... So important revolution that now, we get it directly in our samplers !
Adding to the AMD/INTEL competition, which let us getting more and more recourses, we hold now that incredibly realistic sound we dreamed...
Let’s be frank. No need to capture the wet sound anymore...

I think the choice was good.

And we can chose the room we want...

And last, that library doesn’t seem to belong to any sampler editor (or is there a deal between Tascam and VSL now ? Since there is a VSL set bundling with GS3...), so they can develop it for several one, and don’t have to obtain their agreement or wait their scheduling for innovations...



Regards.

Right - finally!!! [:P]
http://annecywebtv.free.fr/anm.mp3

THis is what I mean. THis is the kind of vibrato the strings (violins, violas, celli) should have!!!

Herb - please give it a try!!! You CAN do this!

Crystal, VSL is not dry... just not wet enough to be on its own space alone in most orchestral work...

And actually I don't agree static convolution is the holy grail to solve all room problems. But that might be me.

Thanks for giving some references finally. It took some time, but keep them coming [;)]

PolarBear

@Crystal said:

And last, that library doesn’t seem to belong to any sampler editor (or is there a deal between Tascam and VSL now ? Since there is a VSL set bundling with GS3...), so they can develop it for several one, and don’t have to obtain their agreement or wait their scheduling for innovations...

Regards.

Interesting theory Gabriel [[;)]]

I like very much that they're adding 2 Bb trumpets. I wish VSL would have something like that. IMO you need all the combinaitons:

1 Trumpet
2 Trumpets
3 Trumpets
4 Trumpets
1 Horn
2 Horns
3 Horns
4 Horns
6 Horns
1 Bone
2 Bones
3 Bones
4 Bones

This way you can have endless combinations of realistic solo, duet, trio, divisi, etc.

"Herb - please give it a try!!! You CAN do this!"
- Matt1

My, how condescending. But I guess you're trying to encourage Herb by acting superior, right?

Actually you would need to do it like this:

For 4 Trumpets for instance:

Trp1,
Trp2,
Trp3,
Trp4
Trps 1+2,
Trps 3+4
Trps 1+2+3,
Trps 1-4

Otherwise divisi crossing points and unisons might phase comb. But you could probably eliminate the 3 trumpet combo and just put Trp1,Trp2,Trp3 on the same note.

Too much work. I'd pay for it, but I doubt we'll see it liek this before another decade.

Evan Evans

If you have the first four you don't need the second four.

@Carter said:

If we can perform the first cue with VSL this is very good, i should give it a try but since i don't know the whole orchestration... [[:)]] this will be difficult.

You know, HZ has Lexicon Reverbs ... now, two TC System 6000. I'm trying one of this unit ... now I know how "easy" you can create a good sound. [[:)]]

@William said:

"Herb - please give it a try!!! You CAN do this!"
- Matt1

My, how condescending. But I guess you're trying to encourage Herb by acting superior, right?

woa hey! I dident read it as condescending at all! And I'm sure it isen't written like that either. Chill man [H]