This threads kinda pointless. Of course VSL and many other libraries are available on p2p programs and you can't get it taken off of there. You could upload your own 3gb files full of garbage or whatever and name it VSL just to mess with piraters. Often when i'm d/l mp3's I d/l something and it turns out to be the wrong song, I hate that, imagine d/l 3gb to find out it's soemhting else! That would suck for them.
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@GTBannah said:
So, Jean,
We have now got past the nuances and semantics of theft vs copyright infringment.
What is your view on theft/copyright infringment?
No more dancing, please .... [[;)]]
Lest anybody misunderstand my controversial post: I believe copyright infringment is a kind of theft. You are, in effect, misappropriating (usually we just call it stealing) someone else's intellectual property. It doesn't matter if the property is physical or immaterial. Just like sleeping on the job is employee theft, copyright infringement IS stealing.
Now . . . I must admit, I have at times borrowed software illegally. That is, I always pay for what I plan to use, otherwise I delete it. I know I shouldn't. But I just never feel comfortable spending chunks of cash on something I've never tried. For the advocate of demo tracks: try before you buy is very different. It's the difference between test driving a car before buying it and seeing someone else drive it on a closed track. The confidence level they afford is incomparable.
My original post here was intended to open a line of dialog with the developers as to how they might lessen the chance of intellectual property theft (or even "borrowing") in the future.
And in case anybody is wondering, I am a full paying customer of VSL and all other sample libraries I own. You should be too.
~Chris
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To Dietz:
I disagree with you, because exactly like Galleddrim says, as a student one can't afford all the samples/software you need to be operatable, so HOW CAN ONE LEARN TO WORK WITH THOSE SAMPLES AND SOFTWARE???
To be honest (héhé I'm the first one to admit!!! yes I'm guilty), as a student composition, I HAVE used libraries which I DID NOT own.
Let me make a fast calculation: to be able to work with samples you need a lot of stuff: PC or Mac (at least 1200 euro to have something useable), software sequencer (i.e. Logic: 1000 euro), software sampler (i.e. gigastudio: 600 euro), good sound card (400 euro, and that's not too much), samples... (well that's difficult, but take i.e. a simple tool like Garritan Personal Orchestra, just for orchestral sounds, it costs you 250 euro, or take i.e. library's from Miroslav or Dan Dean or Kirk Hunter, they cost you at least 500 to 1000 euro), than add a masterkeyboard (to have something reasonably good, it will cost you again between 500 and 1000 euro), eventually a controller (around 200 euro?).
Well sum it all up and you have a bill between 4000 and 5000 euro. And admit it guys, to have a PROFESSIONAL setup you must double or triple the amount... Which student or even good amateur can afford that???
You know, I still didn't invest (although I was planning to do it this summer) in VSL, just because of the price. And I know, compared to all the work programmers and producers of software and sample creating companies, it's NOT expensive i.m.o. (we already discussed this before: 3200 euro for a complete orchestra is NOT EXPENSIVE!!!). But that's just not the point in this discussion. All together it IS a great deal of money to invest, and certainly for students and good amateurs, who in fact mostly even don't use it in productions to earn money from.
I completely agree to the fact, that once you use it in productions, and you start to earn money, you have NO EXCUSE AT ALL but to have licenses of everything you use for your production.
Well that's just some of my thoughts...
PS Look, who do I have to tip about those links? Because in fact, it's soooo easy to find them...
Oh come on!
I'm 23, I'm certainly not particulary wealthy and I am not guaranteed an income from composing, but I still went to see the bank manager and got a loan out to get VSL and the computers and software required to run it, because it is something that I really want to make a career out of. It was an investment I guess, I don't regret it.... Now its down to me to make the money back.
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Oh come on!
I'm 23, I'm certainly not particulary wealthy and I am not guaranteed an income from composing, but I still went to see the bank manager and got a loan out to get VSL and the computers and software required to run it, because it is something that I really want to make a career out of. It was an investment I guess, I don't regret it.... Now its down to me to make the money back.
Yes, I had to take out a loan to buy a violin and bow; more expensive than the whole of the VSL libraries put together [[:|]] If you want to be a professional at anything, then you have to be prepared to buy the correct tools for the job, not steal them [H]
DG
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Hmm......i always thought pointless threads (as some of you say) warranted no replies.This thread seems to have done quite well with regard to individual's responses.What is interesting as the author of this post i have not seen any pirated VSL for EXS format,it is all GIGA versions.Whether this is because GIGA is simply more popular or EXS and Logic harder to crack remains to be seen.
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Paw.
I dont think its a case of this being a 'pointless thread'.
I think the problems arose with your initial 'gosh, piracy must be a real problem for you software developers' post (a little like suggesting that being diagnosed with cancer may spoil an otherwise good lunch) which somewhat (perhaps unintentionally) downplayed the seriousness of this issue.
And some of the other responses that, to varying degree's, implied that in some instances using kracked software could be justified.
As a user paying thousands of dollars for software I find it extremely annoying that others may be utilising this without paying...and since they dont have this overhead they can easily undercut composers who do pay for the software.
And I can only imagine how this must affect the developers...
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@zigzag said:
Paw.
I dont think its a case of this being a 'pointless thread'.
I think the problems arose with your initial 'gosh, piracy must be a real problem for you software developers' post (a little like suggesting that being diagnosed with cancer may spoil an otherwise good lunch) which somewhat (perhaps unintentionally) downplayed the seriousness of this issue.
And some of the other responses that, to varying degree's, implied that in some instances using kracked software could be justified.
As a user paying thousands of dollars for software I find it extremely annoying that others may be utilising this without paying...and since they dont have this overhead they can easily undercut composers who do pay for the software.
And I can only imagine how this must affect the developers...
Hey, I like your cancer analogy. Really captures the initial impression. In any case, my comments were not meant to justify piracy (or even my previous "borrowing," though I never even tried to "borrow" VSL) but to make suggestions as to how such illigitimate use might be curtailed by developers. As a full paying customer, I would certainly want VSL to reap all possible financial benefit from their product.
However, as a composer, I am not concerned about being undercut by pirates. I think it would be a stupid risk (ethics aside) for them to try to make money with a pirated product of this nature. Only an idiot or a gambler would try it.
~Chris
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@PolarBear said:
The gambling industry is one of the most and always successful business in and all over the world...
That is only too true. But the analogy holds up, don't you think? Who makes the money most of the time? The gambling addict or the casino?
~Chris
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First of all, just because software is available via P2P does not scientifically prove that anyone is using the software illegally. Usage and copyright are two different legal pursuits.
As far as I'm concerned, VSL has done an excellent job thwarting illegal "use". Both via their excellent usage agreement, and via their usage protection mechanisms.
No one can stop copying. In fact copying is legal until you determine the intent of the copying. Under US Law, copying is allowed for educational purposes. There is no exception to that rule. It is what fuels progress according to our constitution. It could never be revoked as it's built-in to how this country exists fundamentally.
So I cannot speak fo rother countries, but here, if you are not profiting from the copied material, or using it illegally, than you are allowed to copy.
However, there is the implication that once you place an original on a P2P network that it will be copied, with the foreseeability of "illegal use". Under that pretext, one can prosecute offenders. Especially the "host". Because P2P has a built-in implication that NOT everyone is using copies for educational purposes.
The most common and rampant form of copying is called BACKUP. The reason it's legal is becuase the intent of use doesn't even exist. It is only there to replace an original should the original become damaged. You NEVER use your backup. There is no intended use, not even for educational purposes.
So as you can see, it's important to differentiate between "copying" and "intended use". You can only prosecute for around 40%-90% of actual copying/usage activity. And even then you need evidence to effecetively prosecute, let alone to get a judge to allow you to even have a trial (you can't just go prosecuting everybody unless you have evidence).
Just thought I'd add that food for thought.
Evan Evans
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This presumption is wrong Max. There are many uses for P2P other than obtaining pirated "stuff", and in some cases obtaining pirated "stuff" is perfectly acceptable ethically.@max67 said:
...The only reason one would be part of file sharing is to obtain pirated "stuff".
Regards, Max67.
Evan Evans
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hehe... good reply, PolarBear!
Just to throw in a comment...
First a disclaimer: Yes, piracy is wrong, and yes I own all my VSL. Also, in the case of VSL, the price is totally justified when you consider the enormous financial outlay that this company has made to create such a brilliant product -- from hiring musicians, editors, and programmers, right up to building their own studio!!! (Still makes my head spin...) There is no question, in this case, of an inflated price based on a sort of "secret code" philosophy.
With that out of the way, there's also much to be said for the theory behind open-source development, which strives to significantly lower development costs by "open-sourcing" large parts of the code used in the final program. This way, a great deal of the code can be written (at least in theory) at little or no expense to the company which is proposing the final software package, thus lowering costs to the end user. As an example, I've got my Linux machine running a server perfectly efficiently, and legally, at very little cost to myself (at least in software). Obviously, this is the whole idea with Linux. Mind you, it can be a real pain in the ass to get running, which is, of course, the "down side" to almost all current open-source software.
But the basic idea thrown about by the open-source community is that the philosophy of "we did it first" or "secret code" software is a large contributor to the massive expense of producing many of the commercial products we see today. They feel that piracy will be around forever, so perhaps it is time for developers to start shifting their thinking with regard to the secrecy of their ideas, and start making use of the absolutely massive "work force" available to them in the open-source community. It's not that piracy is justified, but rather that it is, at least partly, a symptom of secrecy.
Now don't burn me alive... This is neither a fact, nor my personal opinion (though I do see the sense in it). it's just a philosophy on the subject that's been around for a while. That is, "I'm just the messenger". And as I said before, this obviously does not apply in the case of VSL or, for that matter, any company releasing professional orchestral samples, for which the production expense it quite transparent.
Also, the first company who builds my Dream Program (choir and Heavenly light) for scoring with samples will definitely see me madly throwing whatever money I can muster their way!
cheers,
J.
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and in some cases obtaining pirated "stuff" is perfectly acceptable ethically.
Evan Evans
[:D]
Care to elaborate?
[:D]
Maybe according to Evan's personal ethics system? [[;)]]
Evan, I'm not picking on you, really. Like I've noted before, I've been guilty of "borrowing" in the past.
~Chris
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I prefer to "own" the originals ....and I've paid for VSL, and countless other libraries. I spend more on software than I ever did on hardware!
[H] But I like getting sounds for free!
I doubt there is one musician on this forum who hasn't at some time used sounds he/she hasn't paid for. You can be "hungry for sound".....the sounds are there if you are "poor and need to eat".
And some sound/software developers do not value their customers as highly as (we think) VSl do.....that doesn't encourage loyalty.
Yes, piracy is a handicap....but a bigger issue is fostering mutual respect/support between users and producers. VSL is tops in that respect.
Nigel
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There are some poor musicians who have a little bit of integrity and honesty as well as hunger. Anybody who uses pirated samples is willing to screw over other poor and hungry musicians who created those samples. So you can take your justification for criminal behavior to the local police station. I don't buy it.
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Nice reply William
I have to say I've given it some more thought - as well as reading an interesting post from the Chicken Systems developer:
http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17972
.....and actually, you're right.
Nigel
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@William said:
There are some poor musicians who have a little bit of integrity and honesty as well as hunger. Anybody who uses pirated samples is willing to screw over other poor and hungry musicians who created those samples. So you can take your justification for criminal behavior to the local police station. I don't buy it.
Yes, William, I do agree in principle. However, I think piracy is here to stay. It's not a problem you can completely eliminate. All you can do is try to minimize it.
Which reminds me, I just thought of a kind of sample library piracy that would really get me mad, especially since it's completely undetectable. Composers who use high quality pirated sample libraries to compose for live ensembles. For which, presumably, they are getting paid well enough. I don't know if there really is anything a dev can do about that though. Except raise the prices to try and compensate. Which we see enough of. I don't like it, but I understand why it's done.
~Chris
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There are times when it's completely ethical. I could come up with a scenario that even the VSL team might approve of.
Evan Evans