@Nick Batzdorf said:

Sorry for getting carried away when we're talking about sampled phrases rather than loops, but I think it's the same idea.

yes I agree. As long as what it is doesn't inhibit the writing. But it's about 1 in one Million that the pre-recorded cresc/dim are appropriate for a particular piece of music. With crossfaded velocity layers, and dynamic layers you stand a much better chance getting what you want from your MIDI gear, and they do not inhibit the writing at all.

Evan Evans

Evan,

You completely missed my point. I am not talking about beginning and ending notes. I am talking about the actual legato performance, which is CONTAINED IN THE CONNECTION BETWEEN NOTES. That is a performance indistinguishable aesthetically from a run. The only difference is it is very fast and almost imperceptible. But it is the exact same principle, and you are contradicting yourself by allowing one but not the other.

For the person who doesn't like the fact I pointed out Evans music was good -

that's my opinion. You can have your own, but don't act as if that is ridiculous. I don't appreciate that attitude one damn bit.

This whole thread has become truly like arguing how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. All I was tryng to do was state how valuable the dynamic change samples are and also that I haven't been able to use complex performance elements like runs, but I don't think this is a hard and fast thing at all. What Fred said is perfect and sums it up completely. I've often noticed how all the great artists in history have been first of all practical workmen, and only after that "artists."

Legato (as in the Performance Set) is a 'recorded performance'.
Portamento (same) is a 'recorded performance'.
Timpani rolls and cymbal rolls are, well, recorded performances.

Hmf. A simple sFz note is a 'recorded performance' as well.

I'd say that anyone 'morally capable' of using samples is also capable of using runs.

-René

Yes!

Everything is a performance! It's all artifice. Everything is fakery. Nothing is real. There is no true universe. There is only illusion, and a short-lived illusion at that. And then only darkness... and silence...

And no performance elements whatsoever.





(My apologies for the outburst. Perhaps there IS an afterlife and you don't even need samples there. Though I would still like to take HO-4_02leg_mp with me.)

This is typical forum´s thread of our time. So I don´t want to be oldfashioned and will continue... [:D]

1) Evan, technically: your approach is of course working very well on strings, since there the layers can be blended nicely. But how do you do with woodwinds and brass?

2) Perfomance tool: Actually I have bigger problems getting out of it exactly what I want than with the crescendo samples. The perfomance tool seems to be kind of a random generator which might be appropriate for Cage, but not for the philosophy strictly representet here by you. (I still use performance instruments...)

3) Repeating crescendo samples is of course a problem, when you recognize the same sample again. I might suggest for the interested to tweak every crescendo sample in the mix with different volume curves. It´s a bit of a hassle, but serves the needs. Cut it, shorten it, lengthen it, splice it etc. (I actually do a lot of perfomance related things in my audio editor). The advantage over a looped sample is that you still have the modulation in tone.

4) William, Evan won´t read things which don´t fit into his system. I mean, mabe he reads them, but he will introduce constantly new arguments to divert from legitimate and therefore just only distracting objections. I think he would make up a very good politician. [:D] Yes, Evan for president! [:D]
(It can´t get worse, can it? [8-)] )

5) And, Evan, believe me, everybody is understanding your approach here. But also everybody is asking: Why on earth is he making his life even more difficult? Ok, shit, I shouldn´t have asked this. folks, prepare for another page of answers...

6) Still I like Evan. [:D]

Bests,
- Mathis

Mathis,

You are strangely wise for someone on the internet. Seriously.

You must have learned it from that hobo.

(they know a lot, you know. Even though they live mainly in boxcars. I now have incorporated hobos into my orchestra. They are doing an excellent job, by the way. Though they tend to play only Hautbois. Hobos on Hautbois. Though these particular ones I have contracted (on whiskey rations) have a moral and ethical committment to music that is second to none. Everything they do is in support of the composer's personal artistic expression, as opposed to sampling merely for the sake of realism. They use no performances. They do them. Though sometimes they get a little carried away, what with all that whiskey.)

Hi, first time poster - long term troll.

Fascinating reading this all makes. As a full - time composer I rarely have the opportunity to meet too many others in my field (other than the occasional award night etc) and so I find these raves highly interesting.

I make a pretty good living composing highly commercial music and soundtrack for...well, anything really (my business cards should really read 'musical prostitute).
I rarely turn work down and usually will find something worthwhile and challenging in just about any musical situation.

Subsequently I have no implicit feelings about samples one way or the other. To me its the result that ultimately matters regardless of the methodology employed. I have recorded using full orchestras (and then doubled large sections using samples purely for the extra 'body'.

Sometimes a sample run is employed because, in that particular instance, it just worked better as an 'effect'.
I realise that this attitude places me somewhat near the bottom of the composers elitist food chain but at the end of the day I live in a great house, drive a wonderful classic roadster and do what I enjoy for a living...and (and perhaps in Evans' world this is delusory) I actually believe that what I do is musically worthwhile regardless of whatever technique I employ to get there.

Loving the vsl and enjoying the debate!

Dave C

Dave C

Very interesting post and if you are at the bottom of the food chain, so were most of the great composers throughout history. Forget "musical prostitute" - don't ever think of yourself that way! The worst thing you do is a good technical exercise and you'll do better the next job for it. Being a professional is a reward in itself.

Thanks William - very welcoming of you [:D]

The 'musical prostitute' reference is purely self effacing and not to be taken seriously (Ill get the hang of these emoticons yet) although after reading some of the posts here one might get the impression that any music written for anything less than the concert stage or Hollywood blockbuster is simply not worthy of doing.

Frankly I find that kind of attitude totally self-serving and unnecessary as many talented composers have found themselves in all kinds of commercial and uncommercial situations and composed wonderful music all the same.
In other words - its the music and not necessarily its mediam of usage that counts.

Anyway,Im enjoying the lively debates, loving using VSL and looking forward to annoying Evans [6] with my never ending musical ignorance (Ive gotten away with it for twenty years now).

best

Dave C

Just curious, Evan: how do you do cymbal rolls? There aren't any 3-lays, and they sound *so* different at various dynamics that I can't imagine why you'd program those.

(On the other hand, for years I made them out of crash cymbals on a drum machine. Sounded terrible, like a machine gun.)

@Another User said:

6) Still I like Evan. [:D]

Ah, thanks. I'm really a good guy once you get to know me. And I'm not that modest as you my have discovered! Everyone has a love-hate relationship with me. No one really jsut likes me. They either love-hate me, or don't know me!!!

[:)]

Evan Evans

@William said:

You completely missed my point. I am not talking about beginning and ending notes. I am talking about the actual legato performance, which is CONTAINED IN THE CONNECTION BETWEEN NOTES. That is a performance indistinguishable aesthetically from a run. The only difference is it is very fast and almost imperceptible. But it is the exact same principle, and you are contradicting yourself by allowing one but not the other.

No, I completely addressed it my friend. I consider the perf-legato instruments to be par on par with single sample notes as far as equal amount of versatility and malleability. They are adjustable in every conceivable way that prior single note sample based playback was. RUNS are not. And crescendos are really not either, give about 10% of leeway for ducked tails, pitch-shifted notes, and other magic voodoo.

Evan Evans

@René said:

Legato (as in the Performance Set) is a 'recorded performance'....Portamento (same) is a 'recorded performance'....Timpani rolls and cymbal rolls are, well, recorded performances....Hmf. A simple sFz note is a 'recorded performance' as well....I'd say that anyone 'morally capable' of using samples is also capable of using runs.-René

Well not me. You have to draw lines somewhere or else a person does not have a full understanding of what they are embarking on. Or they don't care. in which case they probably are the type to have no problem with ghost writers, or "robot composing" plugins.

As for me, I thoroughly enjoy programming every harp gliss, run, cluster hit, etc., fully orchestrated and performed as it would have been on the stand the day they recorded the "sample". But mine are MINE, and they are unique to each and every one of my pieces, and furthermore I use certain run grooving techniques that are specific to the cold/warm conducting style of each of my scores. These small details although seemingly small, are what might easily separate a great performance of a Bernard Herrmann score from one NOT conducting by himself. if he had the opportunity to use VSL he would have and he would have tweaked the performance to his hearts content, because there is nothing more DISGUSTING than a "stock" run.

Evan Evans

@William said:

(...Perhaps there IS an afterlife and you don't even need samples there. Though I would still like to take HO-4_02leg_mp with me.)

Oh yes! Something we very much agree on! Can't wait for that 8 Piece Horn Section!

Evan Evans

@Another User said:

Loving the vsl and enjoying the debate!

Thanks. Stay tuned and poke your head in now and then and post some more! i look forward to your intelligent fodder! Hmm. That didn't sound good. Uh ... post some more! [:)]

Evan Evans

@zigzag said:

Anyway,Im enjoying the lively debates, loving using VSL and looking forward to annoying Evans [6] with my never ending musical ignorance (Ive gotten away with it for twenty years now).

So far it's not working. You seem charming to me.

Evan Evans

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Just curious, Evan: how do you do cymbal rolls? There aren't any 3-lays, and they sound *so* different at various dynamics that I can't imagine why you'd program those.

(On the other hand, for years I made them out of crash cymbals on a drum machine. Sounded terrible, like a machine gun.)

lol. yes, I've been there ... haven't we all. Quick answer is that I don't incorporate them into my writing as much because of that. however, I think VSL did a good job of providing left hand right hand mallet struck suspended cymbal, at different velocities that with a high polyphony and velocity crossfading serve me fine, in the machine gun style of programming. But suspended cymbal rolls are only necessary with full bore Hollywood orchestrating and mostly I have been finding more unique sounds, ala herrmann might pick for projects.

Hunting Humans for instance was for:

4 Horns
4 Horns (muted)
Timpani
Bass Drum
Xylophone
Tam-tam
Strings

Even in my MIDI files I respect the breathing and switching off of the one Horn section with the other, paying especially close attention to what writing is acceptable for the muted horns as they tire more quickly because of the increased pressure on their tightened embouchure.

Evan Evans

@evanevans said:

And I'm not that modest as you my have discovered!
Evan Evans

Ha, ha, [:D] , Hi, hi [:D] Evan, you´re really cute. [:D]
"Modest" isn´t exactly the word I ever would have used to characterize you. [:D]

@mathis said:

1) Evan, technically: your approach is of course working very well on strings, since there the layers can be blended nicely. But how do you do with woodwinds and brass?

Well I am not sure there is a good example of my approach "out there" yet. But I have been doing some amazing experiments. I am about to start on a psychological thriller called FEAR OF CLOWNS and I have every intention of making the music sound as impressive as possible, and I am excited to, at some point, posting some links to my mixdowns. I have NO idea what to expect from myself. I can only hope it's a good score! HUNTING HUMANS is hard to top. I get a lot fo positive fanmail/responses about that score. It has been nominated for best score in several indie festivals as well

Ha, there guys! [:D] Here is our president! Go for him! I´ll write your fanfare!



(But, yes, post your works. I´m always curious.)

@William said:

You must have learned it from that hobo.

Hobos are a secret weapon, aren´t they? [[;)]]
If they just wouldn´t ruin our money purse with all their whisky...