As a relative newcomer to this forum I wont even attempt to pretend to be the harbinger of peace or understanding but Id like to point out the general inability of these kinds of threads (and thus these rather hastily written missives) in conveying correct emotional response (in spite of these slightly cheesy 'emoticons').

Ive had a client recently that insists on communicatiing a brief with me almost solely by email. Reading these emails could easily lead one to believe that this client either (a) was appalled by my work or (b) was attempting to get me to pull out of the work - both scenerios attacked my rather flimsy ego but eventually I thought Id simply call and explain to this client that I obviously was no the composer for them. The client was shocked ,to say the least, and told me that the piece was 99% there and was only requiring the slightest of modifications (and he sounded like a really nice guy to boot!).

The point to this long winded parable is that its very easy to misread, misinterpret or simply project onto others messages and I think this should be kept in mind when reading ones that appear arrogant or just plain insulting.

I find it hard to believe that Evans' sole purpose here is to pump his own ego whilst 'dissing' everybody else. After all, it is unlikely that he is familiar with everyone elses work here. Put it down to trans-atlantic miscommunication or American brashness or whatever. I dont believe there is any real intent to harm and in my eyes it is the 'intent' that is most important.

Feel free to say 'back off newbie'....my paper-thin ego might survive.

dave c

@zigzag said:

I find it hard to believe that Evans' sole purpose here is to pump his own ego whilst 'dissing' everybody else. After all, it is unlikely that he is familiar with everyone elses work here. Put it down to trans-atlantic miscommunication or American brashness or whatever. I dont believe there is any real intent to harm and in my eyes it is the 'intent' that is most important.dave c

Are you ill? Good Lord, for a moment there, I thought there was something wrong with you. Then I noticed your'e from Australia.

And thanks for the game of Rugby mate. Good on ya!

[:P]

@Fred Story said:

I'm kind of envious of Evan in a way. It must be blissful being good at music, and so clueless about everything else.

Oh indeed. I am so naive. I swear to God, I am not kidding you, when I was about 14, someone I knew well told me:

"Did you know that naive is NOT in the dictionary?"

I was so amazed i went back and grabbed my mother's two volume massive dictionary because i was sure it had to be in there. The guy waited patiently. I actually said:

"YES IT IS!"

He laughed. I said:

"What? ..what's so funny?"

He said:

"nevermind."

That's when I got it. That freaking late. So I admit wholeheartedly to being one of the most naive individuals on the face of this earth. But I will not swear to be the most naive in teh universe. I am sure there is an alien out there more naive than me. ... I think.

[:)]

Evan Evans

Scouts honor. True story. On my father's grave.

@zigzag said:

I find it hard to believe that Evans' sole purpose here is to pump his own ego whilst 'dissing' everybody else.

Thank you . I really don't. I am a very confident person. More so than many have seen, and this is what is surprising. And although I am not narcissistic, I am here on earth for MY purpose. Although it's all about me, I believe my purpose is to contribute MY soul to society in art and diary, so as to further mankind, to contribute to mankind's evolution and understanding of life and creation.

And I totally agree with you that sometimes what a person says can really be taken the wrong way. I just wish someone would give me a clipping and say, "Here. Here's where you offended us, disrespected us, said terrible things ..." whatever. because I honestly don't feel that way. But apparently people are taking things the wrong way. Especially Fred Story. I think he's great, but he seems to really like to bash me. I tried to understand it, but all I could come up with is that he is a sensitive person trying to protect sensitive people. Well I certainly love all people even those who are sensitive, but that shouldn't inhibit me from having strong viewpoints. I don't push them, I just preach them. [:)]

Evan Evans

@PaulR said:

Are you ill? Good Lord, for a moment there, I thought there was something wrong with you. Then I noticed your'e from Australia.

And thanks for the game of Rugby mate. Good on ya!

[:P]

Ahhh yeeessss - the old English/ Australian thing. [H]
Ive heard about this syndrome and I have to tell you - its a one way street, nobody down here pays any attention to you guys at all! [:D] Still, bad luck about Mars and all that, maybe try something a bit closer next time.

Rugby?? Thats a town in sunny old, isnt it?

cheers


Dave C

While you appear to be toning down nicely, here are the clippings you requested:
"The whole idea/notion of sampled composition fragments is disgusting to me. Play/Compose them yourself! Or better yet, a robot to write your music for you! wimps."
But would it have been more or less condescending if Mozart told you it? Think about that. "
certainly you aren't equating yourself to Mozart
"It is entirely what is disgusting. I have nothing wrong with the existance of such samples. It's the people who use them, the music that it's used in, and what it does to teh value of the art, that DISGUSTS me. Although nice guys finish last, and I could "write" many composers under the table, it is still quite DISGUSTING to see people to use crutches, sellout, and succeed doing SO LITTLE. Anyone who is on teh other end of this argument is someone perhaps to blame."Don't you find the writing under the table comment arrogant, pompous, and absurd...who asked about you, we were talking about samples?
"maybe I have to chalk this up to having great orchestration skills, but I do not find it a problem to come up with a creative orchestrational solution...I hope nice guys don't finish last though, because we are doing more respectable work!
"Evan, must you keep telling us how great you are? You go on to insult peoples ethics in this post, I thought that this post was discussing glissandi and runs or other performance issues that aren't convincing when stringing individual samples together, not drum loops and brass riffs...regardless of your skills, you can write a gliss in Finale...but it won't sound right...your argument is like saying we only need one sample of each pitch....dynamics are a waste of disk space....real artists will create the dynamics...I just don't buy your argument...and if you really think its about the time crunch short-cut, than you're no better for using samples...you should learn to play all the instruments and record them all yourself...its the same ethical issue that you argue.

hmmm, reminds me of that John Lithgow line from 'The World According to Garp' which goes something like he/she "was born with an extraordinary capacity to piss people off"....said with affection of course.

Dave C

@evanevans said:

And although I am not narcissistic, I am here on earth for MY purpose. Although it's all about me, I believe my purpose is to contribute MY soul to society in art and diary, so as to further mankind, to contribute to mankind's evolution and understanding of life and creation.

And I totally agree with you that sometimes what a person says can really be taken the wrong way. I just wish someone would give me a clipping and say, "Here. Here's where you offended us, disrespected us, said terrible things ..." whatever. because I honestly don't feel that way. But apparently people are taking things the wrong way. Especially Fred Story. I think he's great, but he seems to really like to bash me. I tried to understand it, but all I could come up with is that he is a sensitive person trying to protect sensitive people. Well I certainly love all people even those who are sensitive, but that shouldn't inhibit me from having strong viewpoints. I don't push them, I just preach them. [:)]

Evan Evans

Since selective memory seems to be at play here, let me provide a quick refresher. REALIZING that people's words can be misconstrued in an email, I asked if Evan's comment about use of sampled runs and phrases was MEANT to sound condesending. His answer? Depends on which side of the argument you're on.

But there's more, gentle reader. People who use these evil devices disgust him. They use crutches. They're a sellout. Maybe they're just in it for the money.

Then there's the comment about the difference between Evan's purist approach and "the quick and the lame" approach. Lame, why? Because it's not HIS approach? And of course there's my insecurity problem, and that I'm just trying to be a 'smorgasbord of everything'. (The personal comments just got a laugh.) And this is just a sampling of Mr. Evans' own comments throughout this tread.

And he wonders how we could EVER think that he meant to be insulting. Naive. Clueless. Well, they're ALMOST synonyms.

So poor Evan. Big mean Fred Story is always picking on him. (Despite the fact that I've described him more than once as intelligent, talented and highly skilled.) I've simply pointed out that publicly insulting people who don't agree with you is bad manners. And I've tried to do it respectfully.

However, people who not only show such bad manners, but actually try to justify them, really p**s me off. I do my best to take the high road, but I'm only human.

I learned a lesson. I had a few days off between projects and thought I'd catch up on some lively forum chat. (Litte did I know HOW lively.) My lesson is that any forum where Evan Evans pontificates is a forum I'll avoid.

But lest he think I'm just picking on him...I've dumped the bookmarks to other forums where the discourse gets rude. I like a good argument as well as the next person. I just like it to be civil and respectful. Alas, the relative anonymity of the internet has caused us to forget our manners. I know I can't change it...but I don't have to subject myself to it. And based on other posts...as well as private emails I've received over the past couple of days, I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Oh, for the record, I apologize for my previous post. I posted before I thought and succumbed to a petty put-down. Not cool. Two wrongs don't make a right. (My Mother's big lesson was "Words have power. Think before you use them. Think how YOU would feel if someone used those words on you." I didn't. Please don't tell her. She'd be ashamed of me.)

Fortunately, I'm back into a new project tomorrow so no time for forum-hopping. Best to all.

Fred Story

@evanevans said:

And I totally agree with you that sometimes what a person says can really be taken the wrong way. But apparently people are taking things the wrong way. Especially Fred Story. I think he's great, but he seems to really like to bash me. I tried to understand it, but all I could come up with is that he is a sensitive person trying to protect sensitive people. Well I certainly love all people even those who are sensitive, but that shouldn't inhibit me from having strong viewpoints.

Evan Evans

Boy, you must be a riot at parties...

Taken the wrong way ? Strong viewpoints? Is that what you are trying to call that? What was that post of yours about no person being equal? How else is that one line to be taken? I am not sure if you are "playing dumb" or really this ignorant to your posts and your general tone. However, you have insulted so many people in this fourm - openly and blatantly. Its really baffling how a person who is in a creative medium can possibly spend so much time preaching, insulting and ego stroking instead of merely creating.

Fred Story's comments on you and your posts have been accurate and just served.

I can not imagine you will have much luck finding professionals in the film/television business who will care to endure your egotistical rantings.

Best of luck to you.

Shawn Patterson

@SMP3602 said:

Taken the wrong way ? Strong viewpoints? Is that what you are trying to call that? What was that post of yours about no person being equal? How else is that one line to be taken?

Well, Shaun, where its due. I mean, can you honestly say that youve never judged someone else by your own standard? Are there not people around you whom you recognise as being more/less talented than yourself? I think this is pretty natural - some of us are better at some things than others - fact!
Ive met some appalling composers - simply dreadful.

I just dont feel the need to tell them.

I guess diplomacy is also a talent - and some of us simply dont have it.

best

Dave C

(btw - Im a really bad surfer...its just the way it is)

Awesome. Thank you all for your postings. It has been most helpful. The interesting thing is that just about everything I have said is actually just fine. I meant it, that's for certain. Some I will apologize for, so hopefully those who were offended will hang in there and read along.

A problem, it seems, is I am the only one understanding what I've said to the core. It looks like I have a way of speaking that makes people "read" more into it. So what I say becomes relegated to another meaning. However, in every instance I am only saying EXACTLY what I was saying, exactly as it was said. (Again, there are things I've said worth apologizing to those who walk the fine line of dancing around and near those things that I adamantly abhor.)

So let me try to clear the air a little:

@newbiebigtime said:

While you appear to be toning down nicely, here are the clippings you requested:
[i]"The whole idea/notion of sampled composition fragments is disgusting to me. Play/Compose them yourself! Or better yet, a robot to write your music for you! wimps."

This is a great example. This was in response to an incredible backlash of people becoming so absurd that they could not find the artistic foundation and basis for respectable MIDI composition. They were saying things like "why not build your own instruments" ... "Forge your own steel" etc. To which I responded, "or build or buy a robot to make your music for you." Which quickly brought things back into perspective. The argument was about music composition and performance, to which these people were willing to let their morals, ethics, and philosophies draw the line as freely and far back as to the creation of the known universe. Obviously they lacked foundation and perspective as they let their "line" go basically unchecked, without discretion. It was ridiculous, AND THEY KNEW IT. So I called them on it. For those who chose that side and decided to partake in the fiasco, BUT who are still respected by MY standards (who is pretty much everyone here), they have my apologies if I stepped on any toes when I called such people WIMPS. Of course it was never meant to be directed at anyone who is NOT a wimp. Only for the WIMPS. lol. [:)] Oh goodness. But, you know they're out there. Even if they haven't posted or read, or discovered this forum/VSL yet. It was a outlash at a specific group of people "out there", not necessarily anyone HERE. If anyone is still offended about that comment, and still feels it is directed towards them specifically than I guess it is, unless you want to ask me directly.

continued...

@Another User said:

Evan Evans: "It is entirely what is disgusting. I have nothing wrong with the existence of such samples. It's the people who use them, the music that it's used in, and what it does to the value of the art, that DISGUSTS me. Although nice guys finish last, and I could "write" many composers under the table, it is still quite DISGUSTING to see people to use crutches, sellout, and succeed doing SO LITTLE. Anyone who is on the other end of this argument is someone perhaps to blame."Don't you find the writing under the table comment arrogant, pompous, and absurd...who asked about you, we were talking about samples?

I hear you. I really do. But without human beings, life is soulless. To infuse human and social perspective into philosophy, craft, art, and technique is 100% relevant. Without the human element only robotic precision would be the highest form of art, and that would be sad. Indeed I wrote an essay on my website about how if the evolution of Humans is to become robots, and for all life to cease and become electrical and robotic in every way shape and form, that the robots will have no reason to go on, as they have nothing to conquer as they are 100% efficient. Their CPUs will simply stop as a result of having no purpose.

So, my perspective is ... that which I said above (that you quoted me on). OK? You got a problem with viewpoints? Am I stepping on YOUR toes somehow by posing my own viewpoints? They ARE only words.

continued...

@Another User said:

and if you really think its about the time crunch short-cut, than you're no better for using samples...you should learn to play all the instruments and record them all yourself...its the same ethical issue that you argue.

Eh, there we go again drawing lines using ridiculous comparisons with free floating ethical values. Have some discretion dude. If you actually start drawing some lines, you will arrive at your own viewpoint. Then at that point you can tell me and everyone else it. For now, I have mine, and the lines are clear.

Evan Evans

@Another User said:

...I've described him more than once as intelligent, talented and highly skilled.

And somehow some mistaken insults have made you feel like you got a knife stabbed in your back. Again I apologize for somehow making you feel insulted. Not my intention. I think you're cool. Love your posts, and anything you've ever said to me.

continued...

@Another User said:

My Mother's big lesson was "Words have power. Think before you use them. Think how YOU would feel if someone used those words on you."

Sweet.

Evan Evans

@PaulR said:

Are you ill? Good Lord, for a moment there, I thought there was something wrong with you. Then I noticed your'e from Australia.

And thanks for the game of Rugby mate. Good on ya!

[:P]

Ahhh yeeessss - the old English/ Australian thing. [H]
Ive heard about this syndrome and I have to tell you - its a one way street, nobody down here pays any attention to you guys at all! [:D] Still, bad luck about Mars and all that, maybe try something a bit closer next time.

Rugby?? Thats a town in sunny old, isnt it?

cheers


Dave C

http://www.knit-school.co.kr/p-main/images/summer-bag-3.jpg

try hitting each other with these. [:D]

@zigzag said:

[:D] Still, bad luck about Mars and all that, maybe try something a bit closer next time.

Zig,

Your'e so right about that. I said that they had no chance on this forum before you showed. I rang them up and said ' What the hell are you doing trying to go to Mars? We don't do space! Leave it to the 'brash Americans'. Send the bloody thing somewhere closer, like Australia. See if there's any life there'.

They didn't listen, of course.

Glad to see your'e not sulking over the Rugby [:D]

James McWilliams - handbags are for fairies! Am I going to find you at the bottom of my garden? This is an English/Australian thing, where Australians like to stereotypye Americans with words like 'brash'. Where are you from, son?

[6]

@zigzag said:

[:D] Still, bad luck about Mars and all that, maybe try something a bit closer next time.

James McWilliams - handbags are for fairies! Am I going to find you at the bottom of my garden? This is an English/Australian thing, where Australians like to stereotypye Americans with words like 'brash'. Where are you from, son?

[6]

Same place as you me ol' mucker. [:D] You've obviously never seen two old ladies going at each other with handbags! :0

[quote=James McWilliams]Same place as you me ol' mucker. [[:D]] :0/quote]

Oh yeah! Whereabouts?

[[:D]]