@William said:

I am aware of the complexity of CGI since I do it and 3D animation. I am working right now on a video production using Poser 5 and Bryce and love using them. But I also have worked in traditional stop motion by hand and because of that I like its old-fashioned nature. The best animated films ever made are probably the Brothers Quay shorts, which are militantly old-fashioned, handmade, all-film, non-digital surrealism. I don't like the way stop motion animation has been assumed to be less valuable merely because it does not look as superficially realistic.

hehe, I hope I won't offend you when I say this... but Bryce 3d and poser are both considered (at least with every 3d artist I ever speak to) to be the 'loops' equivalent in the CGI world. What I mean by that is that in poser... it provides you with 'ready made' 3d models and textures to use (as opposed to building them from scratch, as the professional artists in games/films do) and in bryce (which is a fractal landscape generator) it comes with it's own library of premade textures and models. I've personally never been a fan of either programs because they tend to produce very samey results because the users aren't actually creating stuff from scratch but are assembling images by using the stock libraries of assets. I've never seen a poser or bryce image that impressed me, although I can see how to the layman playing around with those programs can be good fun and at least introduce them to the very basics of digital art (almost like a paint by numbers book). Sorry if i'm sounding arrogant [:(] I'm certainly not insuating that you are a layman, if you are a stop motion animator, then I have great respect for you, It's just that like music i'm extremely passionate about art. When you see all the artists where I work create a character, for example... each and every one will be a reflection of thier style, how they light the character, their scene composition, etc. Whereas an image created in Bryce or Poser very rarely has any spark of individualism... It's fair to say I am quite anti-bryce/poser. [:D] pretty much just like I am anti-loops in music [;)]

James McWilliams,

Wow! You put me in my place! I'm impressed. The layman is now in awe of the pro. You are not arrogant, not at all. That's not the word I would use. Unfortunately I can't use that word here.

Poser uses readymade models. Duh! Did you just discover that? It's not even a modeling program! Also, you've never seen anything good done with those programs? Man, you must be blind. Or totally incompetent if you can't make them work for you.

Let me explain one little thing to you: technical complexity is absolutely meaningless, unless you do something good with it. I long ago stopped being impressed by what obviously impresses you - how many techniques were used to create something. Often the worst pieces of crap are the hardest to make and have the most technical complexity. ESPECIALLY in the field of CGI (the term you hate but which is perfectly descriptive and accurate).

Have a nice CGI day.

P.S. Before you impress everyone with more of your "expertise" (please note the quotation marks - very important in this case): Is it my imagination, or isn't this a forum about MUSIC?

yes, yes, also softimage which comes with this ready made textures and preconfigured models is a lousy program used for all those boring films during the last years (please replace *softimage* with *maya* in case you prefer it) [8o|]
christian
ohh - although the music had considered to be nice ... [6]

@William said:

James McWilliams,

Wow! You put me in my place! I'm impressed. The layman is now in awe of the pro. You are not arrogant, not at all. That's not the word I would use. Unfortunately I can't use that word here.

Poser uses readymade models. Duh! Did you just discover that? It's not even a modeling program! Also, you've never seen anything good done with those programs? Man, you must be blind. Or totally incompetent if you can't make them work for you.

Let me explain one little thing to you: technical complexity is absolutely meaningless, unless you do something good with it. I long ago stopped being impressed by what obviously impresses you - how many techniques were used to create something. Often the worst pieces of crap are the hardest to make and have the most technical complexity. ESPECIALLY in the field of CGI (the term you hate but which is perfectly descriptive and accurate).

Have a nice CGI day.

P.S. Before you impress everyone with more of your "expertise" (please note the quotation marks - very important in this case): Is it my imagination, or isn't this a forum about MUSIC?

I was not actually trying to put you in any place, i was just putting forward a point of view. Not Mud slinging. I also was not talking about technical complexity but simply creativity (i'm not a technical person at all). CGi actually is not always perfectly descriptive and accurate of many forms of digital art IMHO.

Anyhow, Sorry if I insulted you, I guess what I was saying didn't come out how I meant it, although in retrospect I can see how it could be taken that way. Thats the problem with typing on forums I fear. [[:D]]

Cm, you convieniently overlook the fact that all those lousy films did not use those pre-configured models. [;)]

Anyhow, i guess i'll not post of it further... seeing as I've exposed the nerve ends somewhat, and i've dragged us all off-topic enough for one day. I'll stay out of here from now on... less stress for all of us [[:D]]

@James McWilliams said:

[quote=William]James McWilliams,
Anyhow, Sorry if I insulted you, I guess what I was saying didn't come out how I meant it, although in retrospect I can see how it could be taken that way. Thats the problem with typing on forums I fear. [:D]

James,

It's also a problem when people post pictures of handbags. When I decide to have a go at someone, for what I feel is a legitimate reason, I'll take my lumps and punishment from the person I'm dealing with. I don't need photos. You haven't enough experience to change my mind about anything you could possibly imagine. That's the kind of stuff one sees on other forums, not on VSL. If you've got a problem with typing what you mean, then I suggest you take a course in English. No excuse whatsoever. I'm sorry to have to put it like this; I'm sure your'e a decent bloke and good at what you do.

However, I take your point, and have respect for anyone who appologises. I have to do it all the time. Actually, I'm interested to know what sort of music you like and write, as I'm sure everyone else is. I'm assuming you've finally got your computer system sorted out. Another time maybe.

As you say, you, Evan and I have managed to go off-topic on this thread and appologies to Dave and Bill and others for doing so.

PR

@James McWilliams said:

[quote=William]James McWilliams,
Anyhow, Sorry if I insulted you, I guess what I was saying didn't come out how I meant it, although in retrospect I can see how it could be taken that way. Thats the problem with typing on forums I fear. [[:D]]

James,

It's also a problem when people post pictures of handbags. When I decide to have a go at someone, for what I feel is a legitimate reason, I'll take my lumps and punishment from the person I'm dealing with. I don't need photos. Thats the kind of stuff one sees on other forums, not on VSL. If you've got a problem with typing, then I suggest you take a course in English. No excuse whatsoever.

However, I take your point, and have respect for anyone who appologises. I do it all the time. Actually, I'm interested to know what sort of music you like and write, as I'm sure everyone else is. I'm assuming you've finally got your computer system sorted out. Another time maybe.

As you say, you, Evan and I have managed to go off-topic on this thread and appologies to Dave And Bill for doing so.

PR
Hey Paul,

The Handbag really was a lighthearted joke [;)] (Humour, like art is subjective of course) As i said though, probably not a good idea to post any more... I end up worrying about upsetting people, and that's affects my work [[:D]] I'm not sure I want to post any music now tho, sorry.

@James McWilliams said:

[quote="PaulRHey Paul,

The Handbag really was a lighthearted joke [;)] (Humour, like art are subjective of course) As i said though, probably not a good idea to post any more... I end up worrying about upsetting people, and that's affects my work [:D] I'm not sure I want to post any music now tho, sorry.

Look James,

Don't worry about upsetting people as long as it's for a legitimate reason. If you or I have an opinion about anything, the thing to do is to be a bit diplomatic and see other points of view and take them into account. Unless it's obviously crap and you feel there's trolling going on (like on the other thread:re stereotyping).
Nobody on this thread wants you to stop posting points of interest. Stick with us kid, we'll look after you. [H] These guys know what they're on about. I'm just a junior member they put with.

PR

Ok, let´s go back to music. Howard Shore.
I´m actually pretty at a loss how I should judge his music. When I was watching the films I was really impressed about the constant use of rumble. I mean, after an hour or so I was ready to puke. I think this was one of the main distracting factors in this film.
I thought this rumble work was part of the sound effects design. I mean I *really* love the subwoofer in cinema, but it has to be used effectfully, means sparingly.
Now I heard the soundtrack and was quite surprised that this low end comes from the music. I mean, there´s lot of delicate things going on in the mid and high range, but even during some more lyrical passages there is *always* some deep rumbling going on. I couldn´t stand listening to it to the end.
What´s the purpose for that? What´s the desired effect? I honestly don´t understand it. On me personally it works anti-stimulating. Am I terribly oldfashioned or what?

Bests,
- Mathis

If you're old-fashioned I guess I am also. The overuse of "Earthquake" sensuround (anyone remember that?) has gotten ridiculous. You hear something similar in trailers - it doesn't have to be "Independence Day" where it makes sense somewhat. It can be just a drama, with people talking in a room, but each scene transition must be accompanied by an explosion noise.

Paul,

No problem with the different directions this thread has taken: it's all good. I was kidding about getting back to bashing some composer. Don't really want to do that. However I'm sure I won't be able to restrain myself if I hear some dreadful innocuous crap from some 80 million dollar film.

Dave

I'm too darn busy right now with two films to reply to you guys, but I still stand by my assessment of Peter jackson. Basically, he is more like Kubrick than Fellini, and I thin kyou guys are kidding yourself if you think Hitchcock was in any other group either. But I understand I need to spend some time backing this up, and I just don't have the time. So rail into me. Maybe in a month or two I'll be back to explain.

Evan Evans

@evanevans said:

I'm too darn busy right now with two films to reply to you guys, but I still stand by my assessment of Peter jackson. Evan Evans

OK. Thats fair enough by me Evan. Sorry for the harshness earlier [H] . But if I tell you that the car outside your window is blue, and it's actually white, your'e going to want me to back that judgement up. I look forward to your assessment in the future with regard to Peter Jackson's cv to date. And good luck with your two films. Maybe you could post some snippet examples of what your'e working on as you go.

Hi Mathis,

Girlfriend gone home? [[:|]] Good. OK. What is this rumbling in the soundtrack to LOTR? Is it really part of the score? I think the score in general to LOTR is effective enough from memory and does it's job with regard to music and images. I can't have noticed it that much anyway, otherwise I would remember it. Is the music to LOTR good, in your opinion? I just genuinely can't remember it that well. If you say yes, then I will have another listen and come back on this subject.

Bests

PR

Paul,

I think there are great things in Shore´s score. I just have to puke all around because of the rumble. I mean, my whole flat is dirty now....

But even the rumble is quite refined I have to say. It´s just... all the time.

@evanevans said:

I'm too darn busy right now with two films to reply to you guys, but I still stand by my assessment of Peter jackson. Evan Evans

OK. Thats fair enough by me Evan. Sorry for the harshness earlier [H] . But if I tell you that the car outside your window is blue, and it's actually white, your'e going to want me to back that judgement up. I look forward to your assessment in the future with regard to Peter Jackson's cv to date. And good luck with your two films. Maybe you could post some snippet examples of what your'e working on as you go.Thanks. yeah I will. Not sure if VSL will be warm to my music after how much controversy and hell I give them, but maybe they'll put it up on VSL if the clip(s) are good enough.

Talk to you later,
Evan Evans

[but maybe they'll put it up on VSL if the clip(s) are good enough.] quote

I'm sure they will be. OK. See you later.

On the subject of the continual low rumble in the recent scores of Howard Shore...

My feeling is that its constant presence can be explained the simple equation

Deep = Big = Loud = Good

Personally I think we should invent a new category for LOUDEST SCORE and award it to him automatically every year.

Greetings from sunny Scotland.

I can't comment on the details of Mr. Shore's work not haven't heard the score alone. However there is no doubt that for quite some time (since synthesizers were introduced into the orchestra) sound efx have found their way into the fabric of the score. This combined with an emphasis on efx from the sound department has indeed cluttered up the sonic elements of film in general.

This is why the silent era is being appreciated and longed for more and more by purists. The visual with music is the foundation of the art. The crushing, numbing effect of loud noise may have it's place here and there but it should never have become the norm. Since studios want the "blockbuster" more than anything else no doubt explains this irritating phenomenon's prevalence.

Dave Connor

today we have wonderful film music scores, from godenthal, jerry goldsmith, thomas newman, silvestri, James Horner(even if he 's inspired a lot by classical pieces, his scores for Apollo 13 and A Beautiful Mind were simply amazing, for me ...) james newton howard and of course the incredible Hans Zimmer(his themes are fuck*** simple but incredible effectives), i love Crimson tide , the thin red line ...
i think imho there are a lot of film scores that are even better than classic orchestral piece...


funny topic...

ps : (you can't even compete with that "bad composers", so don't criticize them...)

I'm not aware of many competitions being held between film composers so I'm not planning to compete any time soon.

To criticize bad music however is certainly warranted as is criticizing bad food. Mac Donalds is hugely successful but that doesn't mean their food is any good it just means it's popular and consumed more than good food.

Some of the composer's you mentioned have written terrible music and lowered the standard of the art. It's healthy when this is pointed out in any art even if it's futile. Pop music as well is in a very bad state. Creativity and invention is at an all time low (in favor of personality and appearance.)

Thank God for free speech.

Dave Connor

@dpcon said:

I'm not aware of many competitions being held between film composers so I'm not planning to compete any time soon.

To criticize bad music however is certainly warranted as is criticizing bad food. Mac Donalds is hugely successful but that doesn't mean their food is any good it just means it's popular and consumed more than good food.

Some of the composer's you mentioned have written terrible music and lowered the standard of the art. It's healthy when this is pointed out in any art even if it's futile. Pop music as well is in a very bad state. Creativity and invention is at an all time low (in favor of personality and appearance.)

Thank God for free speech.

Dave Connor

rohhh don't say that ! [:)] i never said you can't speak freely

what do you mean by "they have lowered the standard of the art" , do you mean it's a bad music ? (english isnt my native language , i don't understand all subtleties of this language)