Ok, let´s go back to music. Howard Shore.
I´m actually pretty at a loss how I should judge his music. When I was watching the films I was really impressed about the constant use of rumble. I mean, after an hour or so I was ready to puke. I think this was one of the main distracting factors in this film.
I thought this rumble work was part of the sound effects design. I mean I *really* love the subwoofer in cinema, but it has to be used effectfully, means sparingly.
Now I heard the soundtrack and was quite surprised that this low end comes from the music. I mean, there´s lot of delicate things going on in the mid and high range, but even during some more lyrical passages there is *always* some deep rumbling going on. I couldn´t stand listening to it to the end.
What´s the purpose for that? What´s the desired effect? I honestly don´t understand it. On me personally it works anti-stimulating. Am I terribly oldfashioned or what?

Bests,
- Mathis

If you're old-fashioned I guess I am also. The overuse of "Earthquake" sensuround (anyone remember that?) has gotten ridiculous. You hear something similar in trailers - it doesn't have to be "Independence Day" where it makes sense somewhat. It can be just a drama, with people talking in a room, but each scene transition must be accompanied by an explosion noise.

Paul,

No problem with the different directions this thread has taken: it's all good. I was kidding about getting back to bashing some composer. Don't really want to do that. However I'm sure I won't be able to restrain myself if I hear some dreadful innocuous crap from some 80 million dollar film.

Dave

I'm too darn busy right now with two films to reply to you guys, but I still stand by my assessment of Peter jackson. Basically, he is more like Kubrick than Fellini, and I thin kyou guys are kidding yourself if you think Hitchcock was in any other group either. But I understand I need to spend some time backing this up, and I just don't have the time. So rail into me. Maybe in a month or two I'll be back to explain.

Evan Evans

@evanevans said:

I'm too darn busy right now with two films to reply to you guys, but I still stand by my assessment of Peter jackson. Evan Evans

OK. Thats fair enough by me Evan. Sorry for the harshness earlier [H] . But if I tell you that the car outside your window is blue, and it's actually white, your'e going to want me to back that judgement up. I look forward to your assessment in the future with regard to Peter Jackson's cv to date. And good luck with your two films. Maybe you could post some snippet examples of what your'e working on as you go.

Hi Mathis,

Girlfriend gone home? [[:|]] Good. OK. What is this rumbling in the soundtrack to LOTR? Is it really part of the score? I think the score in general to LOTR is effective enough from memory and does it's job with regard to music and images. I can't have noticed it that much anyway, otherwise I would remember it. Is the music to LOTR good, in your opinion? I just genuinely can't remember it that well. If you say yes, then I will have another listen and come back on this subject.

Bests

PR

Paul,

I think there are great things in Shore´s score. I just have to puke all around because of the rumble. I mean, my whole flat is dirty now....

But even the rumble is quite refined I have to say. It´s just... all the time.

@evanevans said:

I'm too darn busy right now with two films to reply to you guys, but I still stand by my assessment of Peter jackson. Evan Evans

OK. Thats fair enough by me Evan. Sorry for the harshness earlier [H] . But if I tell you that the car outside your window is blue, and it's actually white, your'e going to want me to back that judgement up. I look forward to your assessment in the future with regard to Peter Jackson's cv to date. And good luck with your two films. Maybe you could post some snippet examples of what your'e working on as you go.Thanks. yeah I will. Not sure if VSL will be warm to my music after how much controversy and hell I give them, but maybe they'll put it up on VSL if the clip(s) are good enough.

Talk to you later,
Evan Evans

[but maybe they'll put it up on VSL if the clip(s) are good enough.] quote

I'm sure they will be. OK. See you later.

On the subject of the continual low rumble in the recent scores of Howard Shore...

My feeling is that its constant presence can be explained the simple equation

Deep = Big = Loud = Good

Personally I think we should invent a new category for LOUDEST SCORE and award it to him automatically every year.

Greetings from sunny Scotland.

I can't comment on the details of Mr. Shore's work not haven't heard the score alone. However there is no doubt that for quite some time (since synthesizers were introduced into the orchestra) sound efx have found their way into the fabric of the score. This combined with an emphasis on efx from the sound department has indeed cluttered up the sonic elements of film in general.

This is why the silent era is being appreciated and longed for more and more by purists. The visual with music is the foundation of the art. The crushing, numbing effect of loud noise may have it's place here and there but it should never have become the norm. Since studios want the "blockbuster" more than anything else no doubt explains this irritating phenomenon's prevalence.

Dave Connor

today we have wonderful film music scores, from godenthal, jerry goldsmith, thomas newman, silvestri, James Horner(even if he 's inspired a lot by classical pieces, his scores for Apollo 13 and A Beautiful Mind were simply amazing, for me ...) james newton howard and of course the incredible Hans Zimmer(his themes are fuck*** simple but incredible effectives), i love Crimson tide , the thin red line ...
i think imho there are a lot of film scores that are even better than classic orchestral piece...


funny topic...

ps : (you can't even compete with that "bad composers", so don't criticize them...)

I'm not aware of many competitions being held between film composers so I'm not planning to compete any time soon.

To criticize bad music however is certainly warranted as is criticizing bad food. Mac Donalds is hugely successful but that doesn't mean their food is any good it just means it's popular and consumed more than good food.

Some of the composer's you mentioned have written terrible music and lowered the standard of the art. It's healthy when this is pointed out in any art even if it's futile. Pop music as well is in a very bad state. Creativity and invention is at an all time low (in favor of personality and appearance.)

Thank God for free speech.

Dave Connor

@dpcon said:

I'm not aware of many competitions being held between film composers so I'm not planning to compete any time soon.

To criticize bad music however is certainly warranted as is criticizing bad food. Mac Donalds is hugely successful but that doesn't mean their food is any good it just means it's popular and consumed more than good food.

Some of the composer's you mentioned have written terrible music and lowered the standard of the art. It's healthy when this is pointed out in any art even if it's futile. Pop music as well is in a very bad state. Creativity and invention is at an all time low (in favor of personality and appearance.)

Thank God for free speech.

Dave Connor

rohhh don't say that ! [:)] i never said you can't speak freely

what do you mean by "they have lowered the standard of the art" , do you mean it's a bad music ? (english isnt my native language , i don't understand all subtleties of this language)

Carter,

My free speech remark was a response to, "Don't criticize them." I was merely saying that anyone should be allowed to criticize art (think critically) anywhere anytime. It's actually an important ingredient. It also means that someone who makes critical remarks can fairly be criticized as well. Many great composer's were criticized in their day which show's how wrong people can be. I just wouldn't want to live in a world where any voice was not able to speak right or wrong. Which is an over reaction to your intended point no doubt.

My point is this: Film music has produced some of the best composers in any medium. It is now producing some of the worst. I wish it wasn't true but it is painfully true. So am I being overly critical or just stating the obvious?

I appreciate your concern that I may have misunderstood your remarks.

Best wishes
[:)]

Dave Connor

I disagree with the statement by Carter about James Horner - his music is truly plagiarized, not merely inspired, from classical music. It is point for point, note for note, orchestration for orchestration STOLEN. You want some proof - I'll give it to you.

I dislike most of today's film music (not all - just most) and I DO put my own music up for comparison. Also, you have not heard Dave Connor's music, so how do you know that he cannot be compared to the good/bad ones? Answer that please. There are many people right here who have a lot of talent even if they are not yet famous.

Though conversely I agree with Dave that it is wrong to create "competition" between composers. In fact, it is stupid. Each composer, if he is any good, creates his own world which is judged on merits it creates for itself.

I DEMAND THAT PAUL ENTER INTO THIS DISCUSSION!!!! DO YOU HEAR THAT PAUL? I REFUSE TO LET PROBLEMS CREATED BY SOMEONE ELSE STOP YOU FROM POSTING HERE! YOU ARE BANNED FROM RETIRING FROM THIS FORUM.

(A Senior Member has the power to ban another member from retiring, as per VSL FORUM NETIQUETTE CODE #23959685712-adhql165-3 sec. 1753.a)

@Morpheus said:

Deep = Big = Loud = Good

Very true. Although, as Dave stated, the opposite is wrong, too. My problem is that there seldomly is any variety.

Yesterday I showed my work to an established film composer who said that the problem with my music is that it doesn´t hold *one* emotion. A succesful score builds up *one* emotion in seconds and holds that for a more or less long time. In my music however I´m constantly searching for contrasts and varieties to one emotion. (which always was a central point for me in any music). This composer told me that it even would be dangerous to show my work to a director because they would be irritated. Well, and as far as I got to know directors, I believe he might be right.

I´m not decided yet if that indeed is a prerequisite for filmmusic since the emotion is given by the film and contrasts thus are also given by the film or if that is a limitation of our current art thinking. I mean in almost every art it is currently about opening one drawer and not moving anymore. Generally actors seem to do the same. The development of an emotion lost its interest.

What are you guys thinking about that topic? I´m currently a bit lost about all that.

Greetings from lovely München,
- Mathis

mathis,

I feel your pain [[;)]] All melodic or developmental composers (as opposed to say - colorists) must tread very carefully in the popular film idiom - generally speaking. As I've mentioned in other posts there has been a general shift toward the "static" in a lot of popular film music. I don't say this is entirely bad as overly tuneful music can sound trite and dated in the wrong context. However, bad music (lack of invention, musical depth, even lack of true simplicity) never works anywhere, anytime. So if a director's desire is actually, "Write me some witless awful music" then you're in trouble.

OTOH consider it a musical challenge to satisfy the visual content of the film with original interesting music that doesn't develop or behave in a traditional way. Bernard Herrman, Gerry Goldsmith, Jerry Fielding, Ennio Moricone are all masters at subtle emotional and psychological shifts portrayed musically.

Don't lose hope. Rise to the occasion and display the brilliance you're so capable of.

Dave Connor

Mathis

The person who told you this is a hack. I know he is one because I've been told the same thing by a similar "expert." I wrote a score for a feature that was an attempt at interweaving musical development with thematic development in the film itself, but they are not interested in anything like that. It is meaningless to them. They only want surface effects. Like what you pointed out - the low rumbling. They LOVE that.

According to this mindless approach, contrast, which is the essence of the art of music, does not matter. Film music has to be uniform and homogenized like milk. It is then poured on the film at certain points by the director.

Pay absolutely no attention to this person and you will be true to yourself as an artist. Listen to him and you will be giving up your own art. Your music is really good and shows an original approach. You must not surrender your own abilities or talents to commercial compromise.

incredible Hans Zimmer(his themes are f****** simple but incredible effectives), i love Crimson tide , the thin red line ...

I agree about The Thin red Line - actually about the only Zimmer score I get on well with (Jeff Rona was fairly busy on this too I think?).

The other Zimmer moment I like is the violin descant in the main Gladiator theme - ripped off from Mahler which very funnily keeps pointing the harmony towards new keys and then swerving away. Anybody know who did it?

all the best from Scotland



[/b]

Thank you, Dave and Bill, for your encouraging words.

Many greetings from The Hague (need some sleep after long travel...)
- Mathis