If I tried to write in German it would be a rich source of unintentional comedy.

@PaulR said:

Quite so Mathis. It never ceases to astound me that so many people on this excellent forum, from non-native-speaking English countries, speak fantastic English. No only speak, but write it too!

Thanks for the flowers, as we germans say... [[;)]]
Actually I feel I can better read/write english than I speak. That comes from, well, guess what, reading and writing ( [8-)] ). I learn a lot of my english actually on this kind of forums. There´s always my great dictionary running in the background and I use it a lot. I learn a lot of casual english in these chats.
But when I have to speak I´m not fast enough with looking up... most horrible for me is a phone call. there I don´t even have my hands for sign language.

I don´t think, Yared´s score would have made a great difference to the film I have to say. In some cues (the romantic ones) I would say it even was a better choice to not use his music. The film would have appeared like a melodrama from the fifties. But especially the song stuff and also the action stuff I think would have been much better.
But this is a kind of film one really can´t *save* with music. That would be a great miracle. Maybe that would mean one could change the world with music. What a dream!

@Another User said:

I learn a lot of my english actually on this kind of forums.

Mathis


It's 'these kind of forums' or

It's 'this kind of forum'

Don't push your luck. [:D]

Ok, I seem to need some detention...

"That would be a great miracle. Maybe that would mean one could change the world with music. What a dream!"

This is what every musician should try to do.

@mathis said:

But this is a kind of film one really can´t *save* with music.

Unfortunately I don't think that one can ever save a film with music. If the music is of a much better standard than the film all that happens is that the focus is pulled away from the pictures; this never works. Of course if one is asked to score a bad film, then the music still has to be as good as possible in order to maintain one's reputation [[;)]]

The example I remember that is closest to music saving a bad film is "Obsession" - a piece of clap-trap from the pretentious writer Paul Schrader (criminally responsible for the god-awful remake of "Cat People") and Brian de Palma who can do some good things but screwed up a bad idea here - Hey! Let's do "Vertigo" with father and daughter!

Huh?

But anyway Bernard Herrmann's music is so great that it almost makes the film watchable. Almost. But fortunately you can listen to it alone on the soundtrack album.

I saw this the other day - strictly in the interests of research of course. Lots to say about it...much of it mitigated by the fact that I learn from the preceeding posts that it was written in two weeks - no wonder he had Vaughn Williams posthumously write the last cue! (Tallis Fantasia? Good choice IMHO).

Gladiator Too - check. But it makes Ridley look pretty good doesn't it?

Pity about the Yared score. Cold mountain was fairly impressive no? A powerfully intense piece of work. Amazing horn section as I recall - fully exploited too!

Anyone seen the new Almodovar? A wonderful score - mixed very loud - a la Hermann by Iglesias. Really fantastic in every respect. Great playing by Gavin Wright's lot etc...Worth a look definitely.

Morpheus,

Was this Vaughn Williams section credited or is James Horner using his normal technique -
rip off anything he can get his mits on?

I don't think it was credited ... more in the way of "un hommage" ... basically it was identical music, except that the orchestration was expanded to include the full (and i do mean FULL) band.

tallis fantasia or greensleeves fantasia is the source - can't remember which one just now, but it is the second subject in the piece im thinking of...

best from sunny scotland!

Yes, Horner does a lot of those "homages" doesn't he?

BTW is Scotland really sunny?

Yes indeed he does, BUT I think I may have the answer to this particular one...

Its the curse of the temp.

Saw Master and Commander the other day and Hey Presto the same Vaughn Williams cue is all over it like a strange pastoral miasma transported into the ocean from some English sheep meadow. The effect is quite peculiar really. Or is it just me?

So probably it was just a temp that stuck. As they do.

That particular score is quite unusual in that it uses mainly 18th C existing music (complete with sterling efforts by Russel Crowe to mime playing the fiddle).

All the best from (really) sunny Scotland. About 15 degrees here today. Phew! Too hot for us Northern types...

"Strange pastoral miasma"

I had a touch of that last night myself.

actually, I had something against the music in the lord of the rings trilogy.

the score for the first movie was nothing short of brilliant. But in the 2nd and 3rd movie they kind of tried to form a theme that was always played when an action event took place. that kind of made it feel 3rd rate to my ears, instead of making a breathtaking new themes for every movie.

probably not the composers faultthough. he got his orders from someone else. There was a trailer with the orcs marching through middle earth and the chorus was nothing short of spinechilling. that trailer music (originally composed for LotR) never made it into the movies. so sad.

I believed these movies were epic enough to escape from the annoying thememusic effect. maybe i'm picky because i'm a muscision [[;)]] but isn't it a bit cheesy at times?

I agree, and you're touching on something that was discussed elsewhere, about leitmotif scoring which LOTR is a major example of. Though that score is an effective one, I dislike the leitmotif use in general because it is arbitrary - a film score can be done without it perfectly, so why use it at all? But in the case of LOTR it is justifiable because it is a simple way of organizing the score which was so huge. For epic films, it becomes similarly useful to Wagner's original purpose of thematically organizing his gigantic operas.

BTW I remember that old trailer and if it's the same one you're talking about it was actually a temp track by someone else! Sounded a bit like the Polovtsian Dances, with a marcato chorus part?

I know I'm really late to this discussion, but didn't anyone else feel that the LOTR music matched the emotional surface level almost constantly, and generally lacked subtlety?
Personally, I wasn't terribly impressed. I mean, it's an admirable large-scale structure, but it's not particularly original in its language, and really doesn't bother much with subtext, seeming content to simply amplify the self-evident emotional tone... I also kind of expected it to have a more personal orchestral "signature", rather than a sort of conventional dramatic orchestral mass. Yeah, there are some Irish flutes, but...

I imagine I'm about to get beaten into the ground for saying that! (I'll fetch my helmet.) And I confess I'm not a film music expert, but I understand music, and I would really like to hear some orchestral film music with a really unique orchestral sound-world... not only in the sense of certain instruments, but also instrumental combinations that really capture some essence of what the film is about -- not just "Oh, it's a big battle, so lots of Brass and Drums". Or, even if there are lots of brass and drums, maybe voicings that are a little more idiosyncratic - particular to the film itself. I don't know.... Irish flute, carrying only the melody now and then?... why not an entire tutti section? Why not sectional simple flutes or different types, recorders, tin flutes, wooden flutes? Or how about incorporating the Irish flutes into some of the orchestral doublings - so they might colour the overall orchestral sound, without making themselves so conspicuous?
Maybe I'm just ranting. But part of the whole allure of pieces like Le Sacre du Printemps or Symphony of Psalms (I know, Stravinsky again!) lies in the fact that those orchestras sound completely unlike anything else -- and more importantly, the pieces themselves can be immediately recognized by their colour alone... (yes, there is still a good dose of Debussy in Le Sacre, but the overall impression is totally unique). Mind you, that sort of clarity of vision in orchestration has scarcely been seen at any other time in the history of western instrumental music.

However, today's film composers are clearly masters of orchestral technique, so it shouldn't be hard for them to imagine a new and unique timbral pallete now and then.

Just thinking out loud. Please feel free to set me straight!

J.

@jbm said:

I know I'm really late to this discussion, but didn't anyone else feel that the LOTR music matched the emotional surface level almost constantly, and generally lacked subtlety?
Personally, I wasn't terribly impressed. I mean, it's an admirable large-scale structure, but it's not particularly original in its language, and really doesn't bother much with subtext, seeming content to simply amplify the self-evident emotional tone... I also kind of expected it to have a more personal orchestral "signature", rather than a sort of conventional dramatic orchestral mass. Yeah, there are some Irish flutes, but...

I imagine I'm about to get beaten into the ground for saying that! (I'll fetch my helmet.) And I confess I'm not a film music expert, but I understand music, and I would really like to hear some orchestral film music with a really unique orchestral sound-world... not only in the sense of certain instruments, but also instrumental combinations that really capture some essence of what the film is about -- not just "Oh, it's a big battle, so lots of Brass and Drums". Or, even if there are lots of brass and drums, maybe voicings that are a little more idiosyncratic - particular to the film itself. I don't know.... Irish flute, carrying only the melody now and then?... why not an entire tutti section? Why not sectional simple flutes or different types, recorders, tin flutes, wooden flutes? Or how about incorporating the Irish flutes into some of the orchestral doublings - so they might colour the overall orchestral sound, without making themselves so conspicuous?
Maybe I'm just ranting. But part of the whole allure of pieces like Le Sacre du Printemps or Symphony of Psalms (I know, Stravinsky again!) lies in the fact that those orchestras sound completely unlike anything else -- and more importantly, the pieces themselves can be immediately recognized by their colour alone... (yes, there is still a good dose of Debussy in Le Sacre, but the overall impression is totally unique). Mind you, that sort of clarity of vision in orchestration has scarcely been seen at any other time in the history of western instrumental music.

However, today's film composers are clearly masters of orchestral technique, so it shouldn't be hard for them to imagine a new and unique timbral pallete now and then.

Just thinking out loud. Please feel free to set me straight!

J.

I'm afariad that I was one of the few people who didn't really like the score for LOTR. There was nothing unprofessional about it, being properly crafted and orchestrated, but I didn't really find anything to interest me. I also have to confess that I laughed out loud at the sheer banality of some of it and also the classical rip-offs that were too close to comfort (someone on this thread has already mentioned Borodin). However, I would imagine that this was partially due to the curse of the temp score, and I know that there were extra sessions put in for the orchestra, as they re-cut the film at the last minute.
It is also a mistake to think that all Hollywood composers are expert orchestrators; some of them don't read music and others don't even write their "own" music, relying on the orchestrator to put the cue together from themes which they come up with.

DG

Good point about orchestrators, DG. Noted.

However, I did specify "technique", which could simply mean that they know how to get resonant brass voicings... and whether they are one or two or twelve people doesn't make that much difference -- the final product frequently lacks timbral imagination. That's my general point.

J.

It is a relief to hear someone criticizing LOTR's music. While the film is an amazing job dramatically and technically of transfering that great story to the screen, I was extremely disappointed with the music. I have been reluctant to criticize it because everyone will instantly think "Oh, he's just jealous!" I'm not, truthfully, because I would never ever in a million years want to do something that incredibly HUGE with someone else's film (being a filmmaker myself - even though my films are lousy I keep making them).

JBM has said EXACTLY what I think about that score. It is so similar to everything else out there and creates no new timbres. In other words, it doesn't even attempt anything like what Herrmann did on a daily basis. He was creating new sounds never before heard for TV SHOWS! (let alone his features.) What struck me instantly was the by-now trite use of augmented triad arpeggios, low parallel minor chords, Carmina Burana style choir (has anyone noticed that all choir scoring in current film - except significantly for Danny Elfman - now derives from one work, 'O Fortuna,' probably by way of "Excalibur"?) and the useable but incredibly simplistic "heroic" theme.

Has anyone ever heard Miklos Rosza's marches for Ben Hur or King of Kings or El Cid ? They would roll right over LOTR's limp-wristed 8-bar leitmotif. Or the main theme of "Jason and the Argonauts"? - that awesome brass and percussion ensemble blows everything else away.

I don't mean to be so negative I suppose, tearing Shore's score down by comparing it to the best ever done before, but it is so lacking in many ways. Though it is effective and technically accomplished - I was impressed that he did the orchestration - and an enormous amount of work, yes. But this could have been taken by someone with originality and turned into a symphonic masterpiece ala Korngold, Rosza or above all Herrmann.