Herb,

First of all I do not want to offend anybody!

I did only express my very personal meaning. But, I am sorry, I did already hear Vienna Oboe before and it did not sound exactly like this. I prefer the French oboe; this is true and is shared by musicians all over the world, exept Vienna. And for me, as someone who was sitting for 30 years in the jury of international woodwind competitions, the bassoon and the clarinet are not first quality sounds, which does not mean that this players are not very good musicians, but for a sample library with the ambitions of VSL, I think that every single sound has to be first quality. And this in the opinion of the users.....

I do not accept you statement of incompetence and I think this is a real offence to a musician with my credentials! If you listen to my playing and will tell me it sounds terrible, I will not be offended at all, because as you said yourself this is a matter of taste, but if you call me incompetent I am!

Today I do regret profoundly to have spend my money in VSL!

Thanks

Iwan Roth

The ability to accept constructive criticism is what sets the Pros apart from the amateurs. When the going gets tough the tough get going.

Many,many times a Creative Professional is JUST TOO CLOSE to their baby to see the problems. I encourage Herb and the VSL team to keep an open mind and heart to comments like Iwans which are sincere and heartfelt. I am sure that he intends only to improve what is a good Library to a GREAT Library!

I agree with many of Iwans comments in particular one could never use this Oboe to emulate anything Ravel wrote or Debussy. The OBOE is THE VOICE of the Orchestra.And this one is dull and plaintive. The Woodwinds are weaker than the Brass and Strings. I am sorry but that is the current Truth. The Flute Legato p is truly wonderful however and it is based on the fact that it is so good that in comparison other instruments are suffering.

Also I would like to add that the Tympani are not yet up to par either. It is just not dramatic enough. It does not roar! I believe that the VSL Team above all others have set such High Standards that they need to reflect on their own creation and then act. I want the Ultimate Instrument Definition. One that will handle anything that MUSIC can throw at it. Its a tall order indeed.

Ah come on!

Let's not blame one another... from Herb's point of view I can understand he feels offended. Herb has been working on this product for years!! Of course it hurts when someone then compares your bassoons to tubas! [:)]

Of course, one should be allowed to speak openly on online forums, state their opinion, but plain text on a computer screen easily gets misinterpreted or experienced as being blunt, even with all the smileys and emoticons at our disposal...

Let's keep this a friendly place. I've seen enough forums end up in flaming fights and wars between opposing forum members.

Maarten

I was looking for similar words, thanks Maarten!

Everybody can post his opinion here. But if a posting hurts my feelings and the feelings of the musicians and employees, I want to tell that. Maybe I'm too sensitive, but in this case I feel as a musician and not as a businessman.

Maybe I'm incompetent, because I can't handle a statement like "the basson is sounding like a tuba", but I simply can't understand it.

My intention in this forum is to give you support as good as we can, and this forum should also give you the option to articulate your wishes and needs. We want to continue developing this library, and we will consider your wishes. Often 10 people have ten different opinions, so it is hard to judge what's the "truth".

The really bad thing about this discussion is that Iwan lost his pleasure in workin with VSL. That is the last thing I wanted, and I'm really sorry for that.

herb

@herb said:

The really bad thing about this discussion is that Iwan lost his pleasure in workin with VSL. That is the last thing I wanted, and I'm really sorry for that.

Maybe Iwan lost the pleasure to work with the VSL .... BUT .... We are hundred of composers who like it .... congratulation ... [[:)]]


I programmed music ...
Now, I compose music ...

Here, we will use the VSL to remake music of a megashow called "La Fabuleuse Histoire d'un Royaume" ... www.fabuleuse.com ... Some results soon .. [[:)]]

Waiting for Pro and Symphonic Cube [:D]

Take care,

Mathieu Laprise
Sonomax inc.

I have to add that I don't understand this criticism of the clarinet or bassoon. I have been in a state of near-deliriious happiness using the legato clarinet, it is so beautiful and expressive. And I like being able to hear the breath, because that is what you hear when you're sitting next to a clarinet player. Also, I do NOT agree that the bassoon sounds like a tuba! It sounds like a bassoon, excellently played and recorded.

As for the oboe, Herb already said on another thread that the vibrato/espressivo samples have not been recorded yet (or at least not yet released). It is obvious that the oboist could play vibrato! He simply wasn't on those particular recordings. To judge a non-vibrato oboe because it sounds less expressive than a vibrato is inappropriate.

However, I hope that no one is turned off seriously by these minor disagreements. After all, the email/forum format always tends to exaggerate the discord because things are written down and as a result given more weight than may have been intended. I'm sure that if all these musicians were together in a bar or tavern somewhere, there would be enthusiasm and friendliness among them all.

Herb,

I actually wanted to keep away from further polemic, but considering the tone of your answer, I will answer:

First of all you have to consider who I am. Please give my name "Iwan Roth” in to the Google search and look what comes out ( this is after 8 years of being not active anymore). I hope you will then also understand that you did hurt my feelings. Until I did retire from playing and teaching, in 1995, I was a very prominent classical saxophonist and teacher. As a teacher I was used to make extreme compliments and also very nasty , but I do think justified, critics. They always have been accepted and some of my students are now taking key positions in very important music universities. Probably I am an extreme person, but this is suppose to be a quality for artists. This all sounds very immodest, but you also pretend to make the world best sample library and I have to explain why I am so hurt by your statement

@Another User said:

But your statements about clarinet and bassoon, Iwan, are incompetent and offending, sorry.
I personally don't care much about it, but it's extremly unfair for the musicians (they also read this forum).

If this statement is true I did earn quite a lot of money by being an imposter

[[:|]]

Maybe this with the tuba was not very tasteful, I am sorry if this is the problem, but I do love the tuba, I just like the bassoon to sound more clear, more expressive and have more different colors in the sound as the one in VSL. Since English is obviously not my main language I do have sometime trouble to emit my opinion in a very differentiate way.

Good musicians are normally, always very sensitive persons, and you do not seam to be an exception, this is why I can accept your, very quick, reaction until a certain degree. But you must also tolerate my extreme hard critics, without taking them personal either for you or for the musician working for you. I did emit an opinion but you did insult me, this is not the same!

I do not know by now what my future is using VSL, but I wish you all the best for your library.

Iwan Roth
http://www.iwanroth-sax.com

...
I think we all should try to learn from this. Of course Maarten is completely right in saying we should keep this forum a friendly place - some secret cattle to cook a soup that tastes as many people as possible. Let's be highly efficient, helpful and constructive. We all try to gain from participating here by learning and exchanging our thoughts. But as the soup-comparison implies, it is impossible to cook a meal that everyone will find just delicious. For my part, I like hot thai kitchen, but I can't take my best friend out for a thai dinner because he would just spit out and moan all night about the horribly spicy sauce. We should always keep in mind, that one's owl is the others nightingale. All we can do here is to try to describe, what makes us take the nightingale for an owl and/or vice versa.

I have lots of respect for Iwan, I consider him to be one of the most versatile saxophone players of the past century. So I respect his opinion regarding the VSL-woodwinds, even if he is saying, that the bassoon was sounding lika a tuba. Of course noone would truly take the VSL bassoon for a tuba and I guess it is not what Iwan wanted to express. I think Iwan misses some kind of clarity, "wooden" colour and soulful expressiveness. Of course the lack of vibrato is one reason for this, but the tone of the instrument (or its recording?!) must be the main problem - if you have it at all. I am not such an expert with woodwinds and I have learned from this discussion and further research, that in Vienna they play different Oboes than everywhere else in the world (the vienna Oboe sounds thin and sharp to my ears, I am looking towards the french Oboe). And that vibrating woodwinds obviously are not welcome in every orchestra around the world. I miss the vibrato and the "cantabile" depth in the woodwinds, too, (yeah, no wonder, they are non-vib's, I know...) but I know now it seems to be much of a matter of taste and school. I also have lots of respect for Herbert, since for me he is the first man on the planet that has taken all hurdles to set up such a gigantic sampling-project right from the scratch with overall terrific results. I consider the performance-legato to be a revolution alone. Expressive lines are at our fingertips now. And this library will improve and grow. Herb showed a professional seriosity and openness in his many, many very helpful and "rich" posts, sometimes even at the sight of redundant themes, very low knowledge etc. So: two grown up professionals here. Hurt. I can undersstand why and how. Now let us all gain from your both's competence again. And let's try to find those things, that are able to get the whole project more and more towards perfection.

AMEN

I love you all [:)]

Roman

What would be the "owl" in an orchestra? Bassoon? Horn perhaps?

And the "nightingale"? Too obvious? [;)]

Maarten

Thanks to all of you who contributed to this thread which, as far as I am concerned, I think we can definitively close by now. I had a private mail exchange with Herb, and as I am concerned there is no more problem remaining. At this point I have to mention that I have the deepest admiration for people like herb, which is undertaking this enormous, idealist and very difficult project which is VSL.

If I do emit other nasty remarks -I will try to be more diplomatic- , please do consider them only as my very personal opinion, which has the one and only purpose to have VSL like I would like it to be.

Thanks to all

Iwan

one thing to remember is that both Iwan and Herb's first languange is not English, so there may be a bit of misinterpretation of tones and dialog. I'm sure if they were to sit down and talk with each other, they'd prolly understand each other better than on a text based forum.

After reading this rather extended thread, I can offer this opinion from my oh-so-humble corner of music experience:

In using many, many instruments and sample libraries over the years, the one thing I have noticed is that an instrument will sound awful in one setting, but quite attractive in another. I also agree that most oboe samples out there are too thin and reedy (I can't speak for VSL's - yet!), but in some of my compositions, it's *exactly* the sound I wanted. In more isolated solo passages, I *do* want more vibrato. It really becomes a task finding the right instrument for the right situation.

I hope this doesn't sound patronizing!

Also, clarinet I have found to be extremely difficult to reproduce, and from what I've heard so far of VSL's, I like it.

Emlyn

Before some mod closes this post, I must say I found pretty weird that there wasn´t any polemic threads before. That, gentlemen, is as natural as using the keyboard, an as long as we all keep our education the solution will always be as good as in this time.

It´s though reassuring for us rookies watching how not even breakthrough designers such as Herb or wonderfully talented musicians such as Iwan are free of comitting mistakes now and then [[:D]]

The point here Iwan, is that, precisely for your privilegued musical talent, specially when we´re referring to wind or brass instruments, your opinion DOES count a lot for newbies like me (even more when you live in Spain! nothing less! [:)] ), so that´s why I will dare to ask you to be specially touchy when critizicing that kind of instruments. I mean, I´m sure your ear is specially sensitive for that kind of stuff, and probably that makes you having the bar a bit too high ("el listón muy alto" we say in Spain). I understand you want the highest level from this lib (herb too) but you have to understand that what would make you say "soso" for a sax, would probably carry me to the 7th sky [[:D]]

Anyway, just wanted to point this. Glad it all ended fine.

HOLA, I GRACIAS [:D]

Netvudu,

Just to add one more small thought...to your post.

I definitely think you are right about the fact that discussion and taking clear positions about things is absolutely necessary in the domain of art. There are no objective criteria and such things as good and bad are really very difficult to define. But there is a fact that great achievements in art can not been made without being absolutely convinced that what you are doing and how you are doing it is the best and unique way. Remember that Claude Debussy did walk out after hearing the first movement of a Mahler symphony and as the French Composer Florent Schmitt wanted to visit Brahms, this one did refuse to him receive by saying ¨Compositeurs Français tous Scheisse”.
Personally I do think that a ¨hot¨ debate only can be productive, neutrality is not indicated in arts. I am from a neutral country and apart from Cu Cu Clocks we did not really achieve great things in the domain of arts. But we do have other qualities .$$$$$$$.......... [8-)] .The only problems is that this can often not be done without hurting someone’s feelings, but again I think we have to be able to learn to deal with this. At this point I am remembering one of my old professors who played Ravels Daphnis and Chloe Ballet under the direction of Arturo Toscanini.At the beginning the flutes are playing very fast pianissimo runs and Toscanini stopped the flute players and did send them home to practice. One of them was the legendary Marcel Moyse and on second flute was Gaston Crunelle, Flute professor at the Conservatoire supérieure, the two most famous flute players in France of their time!

Sorry, but this are the things which are coming to my mind at 6:00 AM in the morning....


[:D]

Iwan