As right as Iwan is from a principal point of view, there may be _really_ a intrinsic problem with panning on stereo tracks of Logic (and similar platforms):

I may be wrong, but AFAIK, the panning on stereo-tracks is just a _levelling_ of the two tracks. IOW, the louder the left side gets, the lower in volume the right side will be. This is not the same effect that you would achiece by panning the left side to full left individually, and turning the right side to a center-position, for example: In this second case, the stereo-width would be smaller, of course, but the acoustical content of the right side is still as audible.

This is why I tend to use the S1 as pan-pot, so to speak, because I can most easily maintain a chosen stereo-width while still being able to change the actual position of the signal in the stereo-field. You could also use two mono audio-objects within Logic and go the "analogue" way i described above (... "analogue" because that's the way i work on a real console, opposed to a DAW).

HTH,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

Interesting, but isn´t Waves S1 a bit too CPU-intensive to apply it to every instrument, in addition to a reverb?


Javier.

PS- pssst Iwan. That was Socrates [:D]

@Dietz said:

As right as Iwan is from a principal point of view, there may be _really_ a intrinsic problem with panning on stereo tracks of Logic (and similar platforms):
]

Dietz,
Of course I do agree with you, I record the MIDI without panning and when mixing, I put an S1 on every single audio track. I do not like to pan in GigaStudio at all.
But I think it is good to find the good things by hearing and not only by reading.....or by ¨Mr SO and So said, it has to be done like this" [[[;)]]]
This is not anything meant to be personal [[[;)]]]
Iwan

@Another User said:

PS- pssst Iwan. That was Socrates [:D]

Sorry about this, must have been late at nigth and it is allready a few years since I am out of school [:D]

Iwan

No offense taken, Iwan, I stick to the old saying: "If it sounds right, it is right!" (... what a pity that I didn't invent this ;-] ...)

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

@Dietz said:

No offense taken, Iwan, I stick to the old saying: "If it sounds right, it is right!" (... what a pity that I didn't invent this ;-] ...)
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

Thanks Dietz!

I just like to add that you are a professional with much knowledge and many years of experience in hearing and in adapting too many different situations in the audio domain. Personally I did learn much with reading your posts. I do try out every thing you suggest and some things did really work very well for me. But even with this I am not able to achieve the professional results you do. What I want to express, is that information is a very high value but it should not fool anybody about our abilities.
I had very big success with my saxophone sound, which a lot of famous conductors considered as unique –and get me quite a few gigs -. [[;)]]
If I explain someone about my embouchure he will probably not be able to get the same results

But you know all this [:O]ops:

Iwan

Scott, instead off panning with the standard Logic Pan, try using the DSP station in Giga. Use it to create the stereo width you'd want with the VSL sections/instruments, It tends to let you create a more controlled sound, but also "direct" sounds bit more.

@KingIdiot said:

Scott, instead off panning with the standard Logic Pan, try using the DSP station in Giga. Use it to create the stereo width you'd want with the VSL sections/instruments, It tends to let you create a more controlled sound, but also "direct" sounds bit more.

King,
Is this what you mean by "clapsing down" ( I am not sure about the words....)? Is this the same as reducing the field in S1? I did try the system the Garritan GigaString templates provides, but I can obtain better results with panning only on audio level with the S1. But I will try some more.... [:O]ops:

Iwan

King,
I thought that that was in essence what I was doing. The pan setting I'm talking about in logic is the midi message pan for each track asigned to each instrument in Giga. the stereo left and right are then monitored from giga through logic on a stereo audio track. My question is, when I tell giga through midi pan messages to pan sounds, is that the same as changing the pan directly in giga's dsp station? I'm new to giga and just assumed this is what would happen.

Thanks
Scott

Iwan,

Yup thats what I call "collapsing the stereo field". I tend to like S1 a little better just because it works visually and I can get quicker results.


Scott,

Midi panning in logic will only affect standard MIDI Pan, which is based on power/volume of each channel. What happens is if you pan from center to left, the right channel volume is reduced, meaning you'll lose some of the characteristics of section samples especially.

With the DSP Station, you are given control of each channel in the stereo signal, thus you can pan both the left AND Right signal towrads the left. This way you keep the right channels characteristics, but jsut output it from more of the left of the mix.

This is how panning works even outside of giga in most cases.

King,

Thanks for the explanation. Its all starting to make a little more sense now.
I'll definitly give that a try.
Scott

King,

I tried your suggestion and went back to a piece I had finished a few weeks ago. I set up all my panning through giga's DSP section and remixed the piece that way. You're right, it made a world of difference. Thanks again,

Scott

Cool,

Its a bit more work, but usually worth it. [:)]

Again tho, like Iwan said, use your ears. Definitely dont stick to one panning set up all the time, some cues benefit from wider responses, some not.

Like bruce said, sometimes you want it wider in louder sections, but thinner in softer ones. I usually just use another ssample to "color" up my sound at Forte dynamics, to stretch it around the room.

King,

thanks for the hint .. I really appreciated it.
Wish DSP would work for every single Port [:)]
(or am I missed something again ...)

nope you didnt, I wish that too markus [:)]

For right now you can use basic panning on top of the DSP station's width settings to make for more "focused" panning options, but obviously this isn't the best way, so you could just save mixing for a real mixing app, like Vegas (in which you'd need to use S1 or something)

Cakewalk's Fx3 Soundstage, is a nice option as well, but it takes some getting used to and learning. You can use stereo inputs and get width from them, but also place them in an actual room to get some acoustic response as well. Its quite nice in some cases. I've gotten some great results with it in the latest GOS updates.

I think the S1 Imager is doing the same as the stereo panning and midi volume. As i prefer realtime editing (and listening) while composing the solution with GS internal reverb (adjusted very small via AUX) in addition with the GS panning and midi volume and a final mastering medium concert hall from TrueVerb fits well in my ears. So it sounds a bit more 'in the room', some steps from the micro away.

IMHO the VSL does not need so much reverb like others because it shows up an amazing own dynamics.

The SoundStage is 'visually' a great tool, but I couldn't get it adjusted right - it always makes it sound very in the high range.

Hi Everyone,

For what it's worth, I have not found a better solution for panning VSL than the Waves S1. I would like to also reassure people about the CPU hit--it is not a major hit at all.

Ashif mentioned that the S1 is a panner, not a distance simulator. This is very true.

However, one can use the S1 with EQ and reverb to very accurately alter perceived distance.

Sound behaves in very predictable ways. For the purpose of discussion, lets say we are recording a concert marimba.

Imagine yourself standing one meter from the front of the instrument. The image is spectacularly stereo--even such that the low notes appear on your right side and high notes on your left. The sound is rich with low frequencies. The sounds of the mallets striking are like perfect little pearls, each with detail, a full spectral response, and so intimate that you can literally hear the sound of wool against wood in the tone.

Now, imagine yourself standing ten meters from the front of the instrument. The instrument image is now dramatically narrower. It comes from a single point in space. The stereo image that was once all instrument is now a single point of instrument sound, almost monophonic in width, accompanied by a very "stereo" room reflective sound. Because the resonator/bar system is relatively small, it cannot project a bass-content into a large amount of air efficiently, so the amount of bass in the overall spectral balance is less. Also, the friction of the intervening air itself causes the highest frequencies to literally "burn up." The product is heat, which is immediately siphoned off into thin air (entropy, our old pal).

Knowing these things, one can use audio engineering tools to affect distance perception. If I want to make something sound more distant, I will use my available tools to do these things:

1) narrow the stereo image
2) reduce lower frequency content
3) reduce upper frequency detail (carefully)
4) add reflective content appropriate to the desired distance

VSL is an ideal library for this type of engineering manipulation, because its reflective content is VERY diffused and controlled (not to be confused with a dry recording). Because the reflections have been so deliberately recorded and leveled with the direct signal, one can manipulate both the stereo width and EQ of an instrument without also affecting an amount of "air" in the sound and ruining the illusion.

One thing I have learned about Herb and the team is that no decision was made lightly. The level of design sophistication in the imaging of the VSL library is super high. To date, it images better than anything I've heard, not just out of the box, but in wildly varying musical applications.

I hope this helps explain how people can use fairly common tools to really expand the VSL palette, and in doing so, creating intensely personal soundscapes.

@Markus Schneider said:

The SoundStage is 'visually' a great tool, but I couldn't get it adjusted right - it always makes it sound very in the high range.

Do not be afraid to REALLY adjust the EQ response with that plugin. Also, remember that EACH "player" in the Soundstage space has its own unique EQ, damping, and all other settings.

Finally, SoundStage is not a strong generator of reverb "tails." I would generate tails with a single master reverb, and use SoundStage exactly as its name implies--to place players on the stage. And don't forget that you want to use several instances of Soundstage for best effect. One great technique I've discovered with SoundStage is to define four overlapping stereo images in a semicircle around the virtual "podium," and another ring of four images as a "backline." This gives you a total of eight potential bussing destinations for each stereo track. The best way to set this up is to define a single preset for ALL the players and the mic position, then activate the desired players as you open the multiple instances. You DO want to try keeping the basic reverb elements the same, so that the mics stay in exactly the same place--only the players move. If the mics move, the "trick" gets blown.

The idea with the adjusting of Soundstage for every single player/groups was also my intention. But I have to get the basic settings first to my satisfaction. And as I said before I couldn't get that.

One example what I am still searching for follows here:
Today I listened some hours to John Williams soundtrack for Star Wars II. There's a tune 11 on the CD which has massive clusters. Between two clusters as an opposite stream, horns are playing in unison (think so).
If you listen carefully the horns sound so wide in the room and squezzed (no wonder they are real). It sounds like a massive reverb. But when the horns play the last note there is no massive reverb at the end of the note. It sounds like 127 full reverb for the main, and then 48 for the last note. Would it be 127 at the last one, it would really rattle along the room.

I couldn't find a one shot solution for this till now. Probably the bug sits in front of the screen, cause I am beginner. Anyway I am getting sick that I couldn't realize what i want to do [:(]

Experience may help some time, some day ... [8-)]

@Bruce Richardson said:

Knowing these things, one can use audio engineering tools to affect distance perception. If I want to make something sound more distant, I will use my available tools to do these things:

1) narrow the stereo image
2) reduce lower frequency content
3) reduce upper frequency detail (carefully)
4) add reflective content appropriate to the desired distance

I hope this helps explain how people can use fairly common tools to really expand the VSL palette, and in doing so, creating intensely personal soundscapes.

That's great information, Bruce, but I have neither the knowledge (or, let's face it, the inclination) to do a great job of creating an S1 setup for every instrumet in an orchestra. What I would really like is to buy a set of presets (S1, reverb, eq) which I can load into the appropriate tracks of Logic. (I'll be on 5.5 for a few years as I am PC and my domestic money seems to think new suits for her are a higher prority than new computers for me!)

Load Violin I into EXS Instrument 1 - Insert S1, TrueVerb, Q10 and maybe RCL Compressor (see, I don't even know if any compression would be desired for individual instruments, though I seem to recall in the technical notes for a VSL recording that the engineer went on at great length regarding panning and compression)

Then I could load a preset for each of the effects called, maybe, "BRVln".

I think that me mucking around with all the technical stuff is as good a use of time as getting a technician to sing lead vocal on my next song - with similar quality of results, I should think.

If you've spent time and skill creating a supurb virtual environment, why not get some payback?

There would probably be even greater demand for a Logic Song Template using only Logic effects.


By the way, what is "SoundStage,"? Is it a Giga thing?

Cheers