@ColinThomson said:

... Now I understand that this is way too simple for most of you out there, but I am still learning

Not at all! I remember when I didn't knew that there is a difference between minor and major, or male and female. I can also recall that I found the minor/major thing out at about six, that was about 20 years earlier before I fully relized the other gender thing, I simply didn't had enough time, and interest for the those other thing before being circa 25

[:D]

Angelo, you're hilarious!

Colin, what Angelo said makes good sense. Also, developing your ear is so much more important (IMHO) than becoming a "slave to the page." Playing around with the "Every Breath You Take" or "Heart and Soul" progression is a great way to do this.

Realize, too, that simplicity is powerful and difficult to master. Mozart, for example, is hardly performed for piano competitions like the Van Cliburn here in Texas. The reason? It's too simple! Not to simple in the "there's not enough here" sense but in the "there's not enough here to hide behind!"

Contestants would much rather use Chopin or Beethoven or Liszt. More flashy, less exposed elegance. The economy of notes and their artistic power in Mozart's piano music is unequalled, but devilishly hard to play 'perfectly.'

Clark

I knew only one bloke who was capable playing pianoforte Mozart. Haven't seen him for 30 years, and his name was, give me a minute... he was Austrian, and a little loco, had a house at the lake, damn, don't even remember the name of the lake damit

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Friedrich Gulda, that was the guy who knew to play Mozart on the pianoforte, never seen anybody alike

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Okay Colin, and all the other celebrities, here it is, an intelligent text on what we discuss:


An Aspect Of Harmony In Music of Johann Sebastian Bach

by Frans Oort
International Symposium on Johann Sebastian Bach
University of Oxford, 17 and 18 December 2001

http://vsl.co.at/upload/users/57/An_aspect_of_harmony_in_music_of_Johann_Sebastian_Bach.pdf

Read it! It is reduced to one example about Bach's harmony and temperament. Just read it thru, ignore for the moment what you don't understand, there is certainly a lot you will understand right away. For example: "Did Bach use a “correct” tuning in a certain system (temperament), or did he just tried to find the one which was the best for the situation at hand?" Bach seemed simply to have this talent, to tune an instrument in a way who permittet him to be-bop thru all keys without sounding wrong. Bach was a guy living on his own musical level, I mean, just playing his music is one thing, but he composed that music.


If you have a digital piano where you can chose the temperament, simply dial Werckmester, or Kirnberger, for example over the root of D, and play some music who modulates thru all degrees in a diatonic fashion, just diatonic, nothing else. This is the best way to hear and learn what "Affekt" the tonalities produce. The tuning Bach used was not Werckmeister, nor Kirnberger or any other tuning we know of. And as said, it is not known what temperament Bach used and tuned his instruments by. It is only assumed that it was a temperament very similar to Werckmeister's temperament.


Kirnberger was possibly a pupil of Bach, and he wrote some scientific texts about diatonic and temperament, one is titled: “Die Kunst des reinen Satzes in der Musik” 1771. The history of the tuning and temperaments is long and complex. The equal temperament was already published at the time of Bach, but was never applied on a keyboard, and not on a ensemble. For a long time it was also assumed that "well tempepred" is the same as "equal tempered" which is not true.


Notice, when people sing, in choir music and without instrumental accompany, then we are confronted with a whole other phenomenon. Humans are like birds, when they hear an instruments, they adjust to the temperament of this instruments with ease and in no time, just like the male "Blackbird"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackbird
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Turdus_merula_distribution.jpg

in my garden adjusts to the music they hear coming out of my window, you can make them sing Raga's if you like, or use them as royalty free melody generator. When there are no instruments, human sing most often, and completly natural in a pure tuning and temperament. That's Bach, and only he knew what he was doing… maybe not even he fully knew, but he simply did it!

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Interesting. Read through it once, but it will take a few times more. Thanks for all your help.

@ColinThomson said:

Interesting. Read through it once, but it will take a few times more. Thanks for all your help.

I would say that based on your keyboard ability at this stage, I would not worry yourself about tunings. Tunings and what J S Bach did is neither here nor there to you at this stage I would suggest. Bach could probably play things with his feet that you can't play with your hands yet - so forget about tunings etc.

There's an old golf story that springs to mind here - this guy asks Lee Trevino how he gets the ball to spin backwards when he hits it on the green. Trevino asks the guy what his handicap is - 14 comes the reply. Trevino says to the guy he should concentrate on getting the ball to go forwards, rather than backwards, at this stage of his golfing career.

People that give you an overload of useless information, in this case Angelo (because he's basically swallowed everything he's read) won't do you any favours. Angelo doesn't really have any musical credentials because he's basically just an arrogant shit full of crap. I, on the other hand went to The Royal College of Music, studied Baroque, and tried to get as many girls as I could whilst there.

Go figure.

@ColinThomson said:

Interesting. Read through it once, but it will take a few times more. Thanks for all your help.

I, on the other hand went to The Royal College of Music, studied Baroque, and tried to get as many girls as I could whilst there.

Go figure.

Hehe, there were two ladies in my composition class. One, a rather beautiful, slender, and elegant girl named Sophie, who liked females as much as i did, (and probably with the same intent), and.......Karen.
A fellow student who was somewhat flexible in his standards of discernment said Karen was...erm, enthusiastic.

i couldn't get that drunk.


Regards,

Alex.

[*-)]

@PaulR said:

Angelo doesn't really have any musical credentials because he's basically just an arrogant shit full of crap. I, on the other hand went to The Royal College of Music, studied Baroque, and tried to get as many girls as I could whilst there.

Go figure

My fourth wife would agrees with you, not every day, but...

She also studied laying young boys coming from the provinces, but not baroque style, rather neanderthal, digithal and renaissance, and not in London, but most often royaly.

Fo gigger.... eeh, i mean Go figger, aaah well, anyway, the Bach paper is for anyone.

Apropos piano golf and pocket billiard birdie handicap Alfred ---> THE HOLE IS THAT WAY !

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"People that give you an overload of useless information, in this case Angelo (because he's basically swallowed everything he's read) won't do you any favours. Angelo doesn't really have any musical credentials because he's basically just an arrogant shit full of crap." - Paul R

At last somebody hits the nail on the head.

For more information on the "arrogant" and "full of crap" see the thread that this obnoxious jerk Angelo got closed. He lectured me on everything i don't know. First of all, he doesn't know what the hell he is talking about, since he has no conception whatsoever of what I know or don't know. Secondly, I could so easily pull up a list of useless shit like that - things he does not know. But I have better things to do than Google things on the internet in order to appear knowledgeable - Angelo Clematide's basic way of acquiring knowledge.

yeah I know how to use a mouse also, Angelo. I can type a search into the little box in Google. Congratulations, Mr. Know-It-All! What else do you "know"? You think you made some great point on that other thread? Yeah - you made the point that you are an arrogant fool whose knowledge is as shallow as his musical accomplishment.

Where the hell is your music anyway? What music do you do? Let's hear some. Not some lameass "tests" but some actual music. Let's hear how your system works on an entire piece of music, not some stupid little whole note test.

What's that? What did you say? I don't hear anything...

Dear all,

Please, take a deep breath, take a day off (or two), and then continue the discussion as friendly and polite as ususual. [8-)]

Otherwise, I will not hesitate to close this thread.

Thanks for your understanding.

@William said:

... not some stupid little whole note test.

That "whole note test" was in 5/4, that's a whole note and one quarter, just count slowly 1 2 3 4 5

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...I am deleting this silly post. have a nice day Angelo!

Um, is it possible that this got just a litle off-topic? Last I knew this thread was not to pick up an argument that (by the way) got closed BECAUSE of the way you guys are acting.

you are right Colin. You are far more mature than we are.

@ColinThomson said:

Um, is it possible that this got just a litle off-topic? Last I knew this thread was not to pick up an argument that (by the way) got closed BECAUSE of the way you guys are acting.

Ooh, that's a misunderstanding! Well Colin, you are very young, and we are not acting like that, we are like that! William playing since 35 years in a symphony orchestra nobody knows the name of, and me googeling my knowlegde together where after Williams regularly comes like a stalker telling me that he knew all that already, and that it is common knowledge every conducter knows, and then there is a new bloke from London who listens to the name PaulR, possibly a rebirth of casanova who has a baroque problem with your piano grade, and thinks that the Bach paper is too much for you. I just give the two a platform to get rid of agressions, that saves them a lot of pharmacy. Btw, that all has to do with the topic, actually any topic there could be.

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Yes, Colin is far more mature than all if us.

However, just from a theoretical standpoint, can you imagine Angelo Clematide taking a music college class though? You can see the students all holding their instruments just longing to get to the stage. But 'ole Angelo 'cut & paste' Clematide just keeps filling their heads with crap - until in the end the students are like people stranded in a desert, staggering around with their hands held in front of them deliriously murmuring 'water, water'. Only in this case it would be 'stage,stage' hoping beyond any hope that they will ever get to play their instruments.

@PaulR said:

Yes, Colin is far more mature than all if us.

However, just from a theoretical standpoint, can you imagine Angelo Clematide taking a music college class though? You can see the students all holding their instruments just longing to get to the stage. But 'ole Angelo 'cut & paste' Clematide just keeps filling their heads with crap - until in the end the students are like people stranded in a desert, staggering around with their hands held in front of them deliriously murmuring 'water, water'. Only in this case it would be 'stage,stage' hoping beyond any hope that they will ever get to play their instruments.

There we go again.

PaulR, the baroque bloke who studied virginal at the royal college in London, btw. an institute I do not know personally, but I had two American co-producer who studied there in the early seventies, this PaulR is saying his standpoint is theoretical, plus suggesting to let level non-mad Alfred-7 pupils on stage, possibly to shy away the last parents in the audience, and to empty the hall so he can use the stage to perform his shameless erotic games with his underage country egg virgins. Kiddies, before you try to fool old retired professor Clematide, go and buy some condoms, or you will never get as old as I am.

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@Angelo Clematide said:

but I had two American co-producer who studied there in the early seventies, .

You didn't bore them to death did you though? I don't think you're that old btw.

@Angelo Clematide said:

but I had two American co-producer who studied there in the early seventies, .

You didn't bore them to death did you though? I don't think you're that old btw.

no, but it was always me who had to play the stuff into the synclavier, otherwise one would fall asleep from the royal swing.

53, was never that old before, and googeling as dedicated amateur since 1970 thru the music business, to say it once William conform.

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