Friedrich Gulda, that was the guy who knew to play Mozart on the pianoforte, never seen anybody alike
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Okay Colin, and all the other celebrities, here it is, an intelligent text on what we discuss:
An Aspect Of Harmony In Music of Johann Sebastian Bach
by Frans Oort
International Symposium on Johann Sebastian Bach
University of Oxford, 17 and 18 December 2001
http://vsl.co.at/upload/users/57/An_aspect_of_harmony_in_music_of_Johann_Sebastian_Bach.pdf
Read it! It is reduced to one example about Bach's harmony and temperament. Just read it thru, ignore for the moment what you don't understand, there is certainly a lot you will understand right away. For example: "Did Bach use a “correct” tuning in a certain system (temperament), or did he just tried to find the one which was the best for the situation at hand?" Bach seemed simply to have this talent, to tune an instrument in a way who permittet him to be-bop thru all keys without sounding wrong. Bach was a guy living on his own musical level, I mean, just playing his music is one thing, but he composed that music.
If you have a digital piano where you can chose the temperament, simply dial Werckmester, or Kirnberger, for example over the root of D, and play some music who modulates thru all degrees in a diatonic fashion, just diatonic, nothing else. This is the best way to hear and learn what "Affekt" the tonalities produce. The tuning Bach used was not Werckmeister, nor Kirnberger or any other tuning we know of. And as said, it is not known what temperament Bach used and tuned his instruments by. It is only assumed that it was a temperament very similar to Werckmeister's temperament.
Kirnberger was possibly a pupil of Bach, and he wrote some scientific texts about diatonic and temperament, one is titled: “Die Kunst des reinen Satzes in der Musik” 1771. The history of the tuning and temperaments is long and complex. The equal temperament was already published at the time of Bach, but was never applied on a keyboard, and not on a ensemble. For a long time it was also assumed that "well tempepred" is the same as "equal tempered" which is not true.
Notice, when people sing, in choir music and without instrumental accompany, then we are confronted with a whole other phenomenon. Humans are like birds, when they hear an instruments, they adjust to the temperament of this instruments with ease and in no time, just like the male "Blackbird"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackbird
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Turdus_merula_distribution.jpg
in my garden adjusts to the music they hear coming out of my window, you can make them sing Raga's if you like, or use them as royalty free melody generator. When there are no instruments, human sing most often, and completly natural in a pure tuning and temperament. That's Bach, and only he knew what he was doing… maybe not even he fully knew, but he simply did it!
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Interesting. Read through it once, but it will take a few times more. Thanks for all your help.
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@ColinThomson said:
Interesting. Read through it once, but it will take a few times more. Thanks for all your help.
I would say that based on your keyboard ability at this stage, I would not worry yourself about tunings. Tunings and what J S Bach did is neither here nor there to you at this stage I would suggest. Bach could probably play things with his feet that you can't play with your hands yet - so forget about tunings etc.
There's an old golf story that springs to mind here - this guy asks Lee Trevino how he gets the ball to spin backwards when he hits it on the green. Trevino asks the guy what his handicap is - 14 comes the reply. Trevino says to the guy he should concentrate on getting the ball to go forwards, rather than backwards, at this stage of his golfing career.
People that give you an overload of useless information, in this case Angelo (because he's basically swallowed everything he's read) won't do you any favours. Angelo doesn't really have any musical credentials because he's basically just an arrogant shit full of crap. I, on the other hand went to The Royal College of Music, studied Baroque, and tried to get as many girls as I could whilst there.
Go figure.
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@ColinThomson said:
Interesting. Read through it once, but it will take a few times more. Thanks for all your help.
I, on the other hand went to The Royal College of Music, studied Baroque, and tried to get as many girls as I could whilst there.
Go figure.
Hehe, there were two ladies in my composition class. One, a rather beautiful, slender, and elegant girl named Sophie, who liked females as much as i did, (and probably with the same intent), and.......Karen.
A fellow student who was somewhat flexible in his standards of discernment said Karen was...erm, enthusiastic.
i couldn't get that drunk.
Regards,
Alex.
[*-)]
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@PaulR said:
Angelo doesn't really have any musical credentials because he's basically just an arrogant shit full of crap. I, on the other hand went to The Royal College of Music, studied Baroque, and tried to get as many girls as I could whilst there.
Go figure
My fourth wife would agrees with you, not every day, but...
She also studied laying young boys coming from the provinces, but not baroque style, rather neanderthal, digithal and renaissance, and not in London, but most often royaly.
Fo gigger.... eeh, i mean Go figger, aaah well, anyway, the Bach paper is for anyone.
Apropos piano golf and pocket billiard birdie handicap Alfred ---> THE HOLE IS THAT WAY !
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"People that give you an overload of useless information, in this case Angelo (because he's basically swallowed everything he's read) won't do you any favours. Angelo doesn't really have any musical credentials because he's basically just an arrogant shit full of crap." - Paul R
At last somebody hits the nail on the head.
For more information on the "arrogant" and "full of crap" see the thread that this obnoxious jerk Angelo got closed. He lectured me on everything i don't know. First of all, he doesn't know what the hell he is talking about, since he has no conception whatsoever of what I know or don't know. Secondly, I could so easily pull up a list of useless shit like that - things he does not know. But I have better things to do than Google things on the internet in order to appear knowledgeable - Angelo Clematide's basic way of acquiring knowledge.
yeah I know how to use a mouse also, Angelo. I can type a search into the little box in Google. Congratulations, Mr. Know-It-All! What else do you "know"? You think you made some great point on that other thread? Yeah - you made the point that you are an arrogant fool whose knowledge is as shallow as his musical accomplishment.
Where the hell is your music anyway? What music do you do? Let's hear some. Not some lameass "tests" but some actual music. Let's hear how your system works on an entire piece of music, not some stupid little whole note test.
What's that? What did you say? I don't hear anything...
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@William said:
... not some stupid little whole note test.
That "whole note test" was in 5/4, that's a whole note and one quarter, just count slowly 1 2 3 4 5
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Um, is it possible that this got just a litle off-topic? Last I knew this thread was not to pick up an argument that (by the way) got closed BECAUSE of the way you guys are acting.
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@ColinThomson said:
Um, is it possible that this got just a litle off-topic? Last I knew this thread was not to pick up an argument that (by the way) got closed BECAUSE of the way you guys are acting.
Ooh, that's a misunderstanding! Well Colin, you are very young, and we are not acting like that, we are like that! William playing since 35 years in a symphony orchestra nobody knows the name of, and me googeling my knowlegde together where after Williams regularly comes like a stalker telling me that he knew all that already, and that it is common knowledge every conducter knows, and then there is a new bloke from London who listens to the name PaulR, possibly a rebirth of casanova who has a baroque problem with your piano grade, and thinks that the Bach paper is too much for you. I just give the two a platform to get rid of agressions, that saves them a lot of pharmacy. Btw, that all has to do with the topic, actually any topic there could be.
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Yes, Colin is far more mature than all if us.
However, just from a theoretical standpoint, can you imagine Angelo Clematide taking a music college class though? You can see the students all holding their instruments just longing to get to the stage. But 'ole Angelo 'cut & paste' Clematide just keeps filling their heads with crap - until in the end the students are like people stranded in a desert, staggering around with their hands held in front of them deliriously murmuring 'water, water'. Only in this case it would be 'stage,stage' hoping beyond any hope that they will ever get to play their instruments.
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@PaulR said:
Yes, Colin is far more mature than all if us.
However, just from a theoretical standpoint, can you imagine Angelo Clematide taking a music college class though? You can see the students all holding their instruments just longing to get to the stage. But 'ole Angelo 'cut & paste' Clematide just keeps filling their heads with crap - until in the end the students are like people stranded in a desert, staggering around with their hands held in front of them deliriously murmuring 'water, water'. Only in this case it would be 'stage,stage' hoping beyond any hope that they will ever get to play their instruments.
There we go again.
PaulR, the baroque bloke who studied virginal at the royal college in London, btw. an institute I do not know personally, but I had two American co-producer who studied there in the early seventies, this PaulR is saying his standpoint is theoretical, plus suggesting to let level non-mad Alfred-7 pupils on stage, possibly to shy away the last parents in the audience, and to empty the hall so he can use the stage to perform his shameless erotic games with his underage country egg virgins. Kiddies, before you try to fool old retired professor Clematide, go and buy some condoms, or you will never get as old as I am.
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but I had two American co-producer who studied there in the early seventies, .
You didn't bore them to death did you though? I don't think you're that old btw.
no, but it was always me who had to play the stuff into the synclavier, otherwise one would fall asleep from the royal swing.
53, was never that old before, and googeling as dedicated amateur since 1970 thru the music business, to say it once William conform.
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Colin,
You could be forgiven for thinking it's time to reach for the virtual Flak Jacket, but rest assured, it's merely a case of running out of Cognac. (And as your musical career blossoms, you will learn to appreciate the gentle aroma of a Louis XV, as opposed to that more popular, but decidely less delightful, 'Chateau De Gorilla', an insidous nectar that would be decidedly better use as aviation fuel, but instead, sadly, is the staple 'creativity aid' of many a musical aspirant.)
I'm not going to light another fire here, so STRICTLY as a personal opinion, based on my own modest experiences, Paul has given you good advice. I remember at 17, it being pretty tough not knowing which information to treat as a priority, simply because i didn't know at that stage which info WAS a priority. (And even then i chased a coupple of red herrings...)
And there could be another 'enthusiastic' discussion here about the merits of a formal education versus the 'free spirited' approach. So again, from my personal viewpoint, it could be worth you considering extra tuition or study in musical theory, including Harmony, Counterpoint, Composition and Orchestration. You might not be at the stage of absorbing this information just yet, but the theory of music, and intense study of it, has saved me a lot of time trying to figure things out, and write what i actually want to.
I don't know which direction you'd like to pursue as a musical journey, but if it's film, then there is an old adage that roughly translates as:
If you want to write concert music, study the Europeans, e.g. Beethoven (my personal favourite) Mozart, Bach. (Notice how most of 'em lived or worked in Austria? Dietz is very proud i'm sure.)
If you want to write film music, then a good place to start is the 'Russians.'
Rimsky-Korsakov, Khachaturian, Tchaikovsky, Shostakovich, and the great Borodin, just for starters.
And learning to read music well with notation for all the orchestral instruments, will give you an important tool to use when studying scores, a useful occupation i have found particularly helpful in the last 30 years. Listening to the music and reading the score at the same time, opens many doors in the skull, as you realise exactly what it is and WHY it happens.
This a rough and ready rule with exceptions, but it has some merit. (IMHO)
As you go along your particular road, please ask if you have questions. Despite the fact that we've run out of Virtual Cognac AGAIN, (I blame Michi. Since he took over the bar, things have been hell.) there is a wealth of experience here that can help, not only from us crusty middle aged farts, who still like working with parchment, but younger chaps too, with considerable abiility in mixing, sound sculpting, sample manipulation, and the digital aspects of musical production, in addition to their own performance skills. (Some of these crusty farts are pretty adept at digital stuff too. Me, i still buy light bulbs by the candle.)
Now, I'm off to see if that Michi fellow is asleep under a stool somewhere, after giving OUR Cognac a serious tasting.
Regards, and the very best of luck to you Colin,
Alex.
p.s. Some reference books that may help you, possibly now depending on your current standard, but defintely useful in the future as your skills mature.
Principles of Orchestration...............Rimsky-Korsakov.
Treatise on Instrumentation............Berlioz and Strauss. (That's Richard Strauss, not Johan, or the myriad other Straussettes.)
Instrumentation and Orchestration.....Blatter.
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@mathis said:
I miss Evan...
Me too.
He drank beer, and left the decent stuff for the rest of us.....
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