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To avoid an answer like "It depens on the song…
"Use your ears" is a valid response to this question...
@synthetic said:
That's the reason why we need to balance the instrument levels (and panning) ourselves. Even a chart that's within 10dB would be helpful.
advantage to have that values in a template available for composing and mixing?
@synthetic said:
The advantage is that when you play a chordal pad on clarinets, french horns and cellos, the clarinets don't overwhelm the other sections in volume because that wouldn't happen in a real setting. Since sample libraries are always optimized to max volume, it's up to us to balance them to each other. A chart that said that clarinets at forte are 12dB quieter than horns at forte, for example, would allow the composer to set their clarinets to -18dB on the channel meter (allowing headroom) and horns at -6dB. When they play together, the balance should be close. For those of us who don't spend as much time with real orchestras, a balance guide would be useful.
Something like that?
Valve Horn 1th to 6th
1st Horn distance to mic 9,0 meter
Direction -5°
Dynamics: ppp = -43.0 dB rms, fff = -16.5 dB rms
6th Horn distance to mic 9,5 meter
Direction +12°
Dynamics: ppp = -42.0 dB rms, fff = -16.9 dB rms
Clarinet 1th to 4th
Distance 1st Clarinet to the mic 6,5 meter
Direction 1st to 4th clarinet -5° to +9°
Dynamics: ppp = -48.0 dB rms, fff = -17.1 dB rms
Celli 9:
Distance to microphone 2,5 meter to 6.5 meter
Direction 50° to 65°
Dynamics: ppp = -52.0 dB rms, fff = -17.5 dB rms
_______________________________________________
But what would be the parameterization for the measurement in order to make the chart?
1) A symphony orchestra in a recording situation, who becomes your template?
5) What do you want to achiev in your mix? Is the goal to copy a recording of a real orchestra, or do we want to invent our own virtual music?
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IV. Dynamic Indications - Velocity to dBFSSounds stupid, but I´m affraid, I still did not get everything right. What is the difference between "db RMS" and "db FS"? In my Logic master output I have a number, saying e.g. -4.1, which I consider to be the db RMS, while above there´s the peak. So when I play the VI-14_mV_sus_p-ff at maximum, where should the peak in the master output be? And if it is possible to tell this number, where is the peak for other instruments such as HO-4_sus or VA-10_mV_sus, playing at maximum in your example mix? Wouldn´t this kind of answer the question about relative levels quite easyly at least for this song?
This PDF visualizes the MIDI velocity and the produced decibel of the four layer string patch VI-14_mV_sus_p-ff. The produced maximum peak is -7.5 dB in the ff layer, and the minimum is -36.7 dB with the pp layer.
download link:
http://vsl.co.at/upload/users/57/Dynamic_Indications_Velocity_to_dBFS.pdf
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You mention Logic, I guess you mean LogicPro on a Mac; I don’t know what the meter in LogicPro is reading.
The RMS value of -4.1 is way to loud, I guess this reading displays peak. Extremly volume maximized rock music may reach -6.8 dB RMS, but that is not sounding very pleasant.
I checked Logic, it can not readout RMS. For displaying RMS you need an additional plugin.
Decibel is commonly used in acoustics to quantify sound levels relative to some 0 dB reference. The most common decibel used for music production are:
RMS meter measures the voltage, which can be interpreted as loudness. In the digital domain, for example on a data stream in a digital music production software, the RMS readout displays the information about the average loudness over a defined time.
dbFS is a measurement relative to digital full-scale. 0 dBFS represents the highest possible level in digital deviced.
dB SPL is a measure of sound pressure level (SPL). The SPL measurement is typically used for calibrating the reference level on the monitoring in a recording studio.
And if it is possible to tell this number, where is the peak for other instruments such as HO-4_sus or VA-10_mV_sus, playing at maximum in your example mix?
A french horn alone is also circa -12 dB peak when triggering a ff layer with 127.
Wouldn´t this kind of answer the question about relative levels quite easyly at least for this song?
No. I can't recreate or repeat the situation of how a song was mixed. A console automation of a specific song is erased no later then when a new mix is set up. We do not work with the latest consoles where everything can be recalled, we work with the console which has the best sound and this models are a little older.
In a DAW the measurement could be excuted. But I doubt that the measured values could be of any use for a new original work. An recreating an older work it would be more efficient to put a good recording on track one, and mix the mock-up until you reach about the same mixture as the recording.
The level of any instrument in relation to another instrument is changing very fast. A written down level value of two or more instruments is only valid for a few milliseconds. I don't see any standard there who could be put to a table. Not as a engineer nor ass a composer I think in fixed mixtures. In other word, the level of the french horns in relation to a string sections is different and unique for each situation and point in time. One time the french horn is louder then the strings, another time it is way softer then the strings; I can't see where a standard is in between that can be fixated in a table.
There are papers which deal with relativeand absolute levels in orchestra dynamics, but not in the sense to read out and writing down the loudness values for each track on a DAW. There is an important difference between absolute and relative dynamics. Every instrument has some relative dynamic control in every register. However, some instruments in particular registers simply cannot achieve certain absolute dynamics: A group of brass playing in their high registers will never be very soft; a low flute can never be extremely loud. The best rule for a beginner is: orchestrate your dynamics instead of just writing them as textual indications. Especially at dynamic extremes, ensure that the instruments and the registers chosen are conducive to the dynamic level required.
As a rough guide, here is a table of what the various families can achieve in absolute dynamics:
http://www.musique.umontreal.ca/personnel/Belkin/bk.o/o3.html
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In this case I have to disagree. Specially for beginners and people like me, beeing unexperienced in orchestra music, it would be a lot of help, to have some levels to start with. I´m trying to compare my mixes to real orchestras, but since I never get every single instrument to play alone, it´s too difficult for me to tell the level for every single instrument. The difference is, that we are all using the same VSL-samples and I don´t think yours are louder than mine. Plus: A single track won´t show another volume, because it´s beeing combined with other tracks. The HO-4 track will still show a peak of e.g. - 13 db, if the strings are playing or not. So saying, it is impossible or useless to tell relative levels at a certain point of a song, seems wrong to me. All I would have to do, is to stop the song and go thru the single patches, letting them play at a maximum level, like: "At this part of the song, the VI-16_mV get a maximum peak of -12 db, while the HO-4 get..., and the FL1 gets a peak of..." Where is my mistake?
In a DAW the measurement could be excuted. But I doubt that the measured values could be of any use for a new original work. An recreating an older work it would be more efficient to put a good recording on track one, and mix the mock-up until you reach about the same mixture as the recording.
Hey Angelo,
I have read the thread and have to agree with the others. Perhaps barring a release by the VI Magazine guys I could send you Thomas J's article regarding relative dynamics in order to illustrate our point. In the article he accurately describes just how important this is. His piece 'Mojo Madness' serves as further proof of just how critical this is to achieve realistic mock ups.
Rather than debating though the artistic/scientific integrity of a template I think it stands to reason to try to gain a rough estimate. As of now I and apparently others have been unable to find even the slightest documentation in this regard. I understand how many variables are involved when recording and mixing an orchestra. I know that nothing can stand as THE template but even a rough guide is a huge step in the right direction. Once a rough guide is established one can deviate as needed while always having a safe zone or as you put it 'guideline to avoid the chaos'.
I think the proof is in 'Mojo Madness'. One point Thomas J makes that is very interesting is that most if not all orchestral sample library's are normalized. You already brought this up by saying a PPP articulation is the same loudness level as a FFF. This is why if one were to simply measure the FF of a tutti and write from that your orchestra would still be horribly out of balance. He goes on to illustrate more complex issues such as the flute being louder in one range and softer in another. 1 flute playing and 3 flutes playing etc. He does offer Expression loudness adjustments for such occasions which was helpful. I think for now though the complexity of those issues can be set aside and one can focus purely on the maximum loudness of each instrument.
If you knew the maximum volume of each orchestral instrument in its normal context/setting (debatable again but evaluating every variable stiffles all but the smallest of progress) than you could use a simple mod Xfade patch to determine the dynamics of the instrument once the fader is set correctly so that the samples maximum loudness matches that of the said chart we would like to create.
As I said and I'm sure Thomas J anticipated you will ALWAYS have the science/engineering/orchestration nerds who will come forward and throw this down as idiotic or nonessential or only 'theory'. I could see the point but Thomas J has alreayd put the pie in those peoples faces. Mojo Madness is proof that this needs to exist on some level.
If anyone has the means to make this happen or know where we can find the data please call on donations or something. This would benefit the entire orchestral mock up community greatly.
Rob
Hey Angelo,
I apologize if that was vague but I really can't think of a more thorough and to the point way of putting things. If the relative levels of all the orchestral instruments have been published could I ask where? What do you mean by 3-D plot?
That information is most certainly not education for all engineers. I can assure you that a very small percentage of engineers in the US know the information being discussed here. You may though already know of a source where we could get this information. Please specify the publication/website or whatever where this can be found. Better yet post the data that you have and know.
Thanks again and sorry for the confusion!
Rob
Rob,
I don't understand what you are talking about. It would be good if you could state what you are looking for and what purpose it should serve. I am sure that the data exists.
The relative levels of all orchestra instruments have been published many times, my table is from 1972. This knowledge is part of the education for engineers at every technical university world wide, respectively every engineer knows that information, if that is what you are looking for.