With an Apple G5 DP 2Ghz with 8GB RAM, running OSX Panther (to be released in less than 16 days), you will be able to do some wonderous things under ONE hood, and an Apple hood at that.

The average size of a performance instrument loaded into LOGIC EXS is 100MB with disk streaming turned on. Currently you can have a maximum of 64 Audio Instruments each with 64 Stereo Note Polyphony in LOGIC 6.3.1. So, you could load 64 performance tool instruments into LOGIC and still have some room to spare. And in fact there are tweaks that you can do to make the RAM requirements smaller.

Previously loading this many samples was impossible under OSX because of the TOO MANY FILES OPEN -42 error limitation. However, word is that PANTHER is going to eliminate that problem.

An 8GB G5 DP 2Ghz will run you betwen $7K and $10K. A serious investment. It might be more expensive than the PC route, but maybe not. However, by haaving everything under one hood you gain several advantages.
1) You can save songs as projects. It will export all teh samples used, instruments, plug-in settings, etc., into one folder ready for backup to CD-Rom or DVD-R to take to another studio
2) Faster than realtime mixdowns. imagine being able to do a 7.1 Surround mix of a 5 minute orchestral cue in less than 1 minute, at 24Bit and 192Khz?
3) There are many more benefits to being under one hood, but I can't take time to brainstorm on them all right now.

I understand that going PC is the most powerful thing that anyone can comprehend right now with current technolgy, but if you just stop for a moment and consider what will be the most useful beneficial system soon, the choice begins to lean towards an all in one machine. And with LOGIC being only on OSX that elimates the PC route.

But once you depart from a virtual setup than you are talking about hardware (PCs running Giga). At that point your sequencer is up to you. But soon LOGIC will prove to be a winner. We are likely to see a lift on the 64 Instrument maximum in LOGIC to perhaps 128 or even just CPU dependant (unlimited). With software updates like that it starts to make a $8K machine worth it's money.

And imagine being able to do all that 2 years from now on a G5 Laptop on an airplane!!!

Evan Evans

Nevermind the RAM limitation. I forgot OSX has some memory handling that allows for virtual memory. For instance when I first loaded up some instruments they would noramlly require about 3GB, but as it was loading and it hit my physical RAM's 2GB limit it started to scale back, sort of chip away at it until it all fit. it does this by putting portions in a disk cache. After a few minutes, maybe 20 to 30 minutes, that 3GB of samples may be down to 600MB allowing for more sample loading. And I notice no performance decrease at 150% RAM capacity. I haven't loaded more to test it. But it doesn't matter. RAM has no limits in OSX. And if the performance starts to suffer at all say when you have 40GB of samples loaded in, that's only in LIVE mode. If you do a mixdown, the mixdown will be flawless.

just wanted to clear that up.

Evan Evans

Oh and let me relaly clear this up. When I say you can load 40GB of sampels into LOGIC under OSX, I meant 40GB of little tiny disk stream starts. The actual underlying sample size can be as big as the hard drives can handle.

So, perhaps 40GB worth of disk streams would facilitate maybe 700GB of samples.

Evan Evans

Evan, are you saying $10,000 for a fully-loaded computer? Unless there are tweak requirements I don't know about, you can buy DDR400 RAM sticks for those machines for about $150 each, making it $1200 + $3000 for the computer. But you're probably adding in the cost of the VSL and audio hardware.

Anyway, the G5 sure sounds like the way to go, but I go back and forth about what to do. The question has always been Do I need this piece of digital equipment to get my work done today - because it's going to have lost 80% of its value before you unpack the box - but right now is a really tough time to be needing another computer!

The Windows machines people are recommending for sample playback aren't cheap anymore, and that changes the concept entirely. A $900 Giga machine, like the one I have working just beautifully, isn't all we're likely to need with Giga 3. Yet I'm having a hard time dropping $1700-2000 on a machine that still isn't adequate to run VSL and other streaming libraries. Knowing that machines that will really do the job are on the horizon, it just feels like a really short-term investment. And another $900 PC seems like an even shorter term investment!

That makes the G5 look even better to me. Yet it's really new and unknown, and it would require taking a total OS X plunge. That's a big leap of faith.

Sigh. There's no perfect answer.

nick, the price you mention seems to be for 512 MB sticks, 1 GB sticks PC4000 are usually at 350-400 (euro, should be similar in usd)
looking into the apple shop they even charge more than 5.000 additionally for 8GB [[:|]] and then you have nothing but a 160 GB system disk ...
if i read the specs correctly you can only add one additional serial-ata drive (where is a raid-controller for serial-ata with at least two additional ports?)
adding a scsi-controller and say 3 146GB disks will increase the price again, also you need a compatible (!) soundcard except you are happy with the built-in audio - hmm, i can build a couple of high-end PCs for that money

yesterday i read: you can upgrade to panther if you buy after oct. 7th for only 29 bucks - hey guys, this is a bad joke, isn't it?
at last nobody was willing to confirm that logic or any other application will _use_ the 8GB until now and i doubt it will, because it's still a 32bit application - how should it address more than 2GB? yes, there are some workarounds to address more (~2.8GB) using 32 bit, but the application and the OS has to support this - nothing can be found which confirms this

please can somebody contradict and point me to a respective source?
christian

Hi Nightfly,

mhhhh yeah, I was also wondering about the 10K, sounded pretty "cheap" LOL.

I also was told to look into the G5 for my future plans, but seriously, I can not justify such pricing. particulary at a timne where this 64 bit monster has no or very little (a few graphic applications I believe) support for native 64bit processing. CM is right on that point I think.

It will take considerable time until software is re-written, and this is what it takes literally, to fully exploit the 64bit system and its adressroom.

Lets face it, it is a lot of marketing hype going on about that G5 and Logic, a lot of smokescreens and not realistic. 5k for 8 Gig...yeah...right! ;o}

So, when can we expect that those dodgy PC's and Mac's (runing for cover) will give it up for musicians?

I take a risk and predict that the 210Ghz CPU baed on IBM's SiGe-Technology (Silicium-Germanium)will be around 1-2 years mainstream on high-end systems. Also SUN has some new technology in the drawers that could cause to increase CPU speed 70-100 times faster than systems today.

The structure of the Computer as we know it will change significantly not too far away from today. Of course, there are bottle necks all over the place, but I think we will see some significant news in that sector, the sooner the better.

However, back to the present, whats the best bang for the buck isw one view, the other is whats the best technology regardless the bucks. If your budget has no limit, well yeah, this --> http://www.studionetworksolutions.com/content/">http://www.studionetworksolutions.com/content/ is what you want for your massive data transfers, whether you hook it up with a G5 or a Opteron, go figure. But the SAN Pro Fibreoptics is the ultimate you can get today. I spoke with the guys over there in the USA, unfortunately I can not afford such yet, but I sure dream about it. ;o}

If you turn revenue with your compoisitions in the filmindustry, trhe above solution would be an investment that really pays of. Personally I would run a couple of high-spec PC's rather than 1 G5 for the same price to drive this SAN solution.

Best wishes
~^..^~
Bear

P.S. Please dont tell me, yeah thats it I am boignt to buy this SAN stuff..... I couldnt take it ;o}

P.P.S
Sorry for all those typos, you all better get used to it, I am a trained pianist and play a somewhat decent Scriabin etc, but in the morning on the Computer ....only 11 thumbs [:D]

Thank you guys for all your replies! Experiencing the vibrancy and passion of the VSL community is amazing.

The one thing that I have forgotten to mention in my original post:
time is of essence here. In other words, I cannot depend on code that may or may not be written/ altered sometime in the future; I'm after a solution that is actually working for you now, in real time. This addition to my system has got to be up, running and sufficient this month.

One further enhancement: budget is also of essence. As much as I'd love to invest in 12 NASA grade machines, I'm realistically looking at approximately four 2.4 GHZ Pentiums - or one G5. Should I even start?

Tell me what's working (or not) in YOUR life...

- Ido

nightfly, considering what you have my approach would be logic on the mac and several PCs running gigastudio. the mac is more efficient for a lot of other tasks than *simply* providing samples.
not mentioned has been the size of your orchestration so probably start with two machines and see how far you will get, if it's not enough add another one or two, accessing them via a KVM-switch (one monitor and keyboard for all) and networking them is easy even with a mac running osX for filetransfers (use gigabit) and if needed you can always import one or another instrument from the cube to exs24.
choose your machines carefully regarding performance and interfaces or get a solution from the shelf like musi-can where performance is garanteed
if you're interested in more technical details please use email
christian

@The Nightfly said:

I'm realistically looking at approximately four 2.4 GHZ Pentiums - or one G5. Should I even start?

Don't ask if you should even start if time is of the essence. You are contradicting yourself with that question.

If time is of the essence, then I suggest one G5 with 2GB of RAM and one PC setup the way you ened it for Giga. My wife has the G5 and it is so fast it is unbelievable. And I have a Dual G4 1.42Ghz here!

VERY soon Logic will be 64-bit. You will then be a very happy man. On Oct.24th Panther is released making Logic as powerful as a few Giga setups.

I am currently doing what I can to download it on my SPECIAL networks. Once installed I will let you know if it indeed resolves the TOO MANY FILES OPEN error.

G5 with 2GB should be what? $4K? Then, Logic and EXS24mkII licenses for $1K. Then a PC for maybe $1.5K. Plus PCI cards.

Ten don't forget VSl for EXS and Giga.

You are around $14K.

maybe you should just do the G5 and stop pussyfooting around.

By the way, even if Logic isn't 64-bit it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with how much memory LOGIC can access. That's because LOGIC doesn't access memory, it REQUESTS it. The system accesses it through it's memory management (a UNIX powerhouse), and passes the data to the app. That's how right now on a 2GB G4 I can have 5GB loaded into LOGIC with no problems.

Please remember not to get hung-up on RAM with Mac OSX. You just don't understand how OSX handles memory if you do. There is no such thing as application memory sizes and memoery requirements under OSX. Doesn't exist. I can run a full Logic setup with 5GBs of buffered voices loaded (maybe 40GB of sounds), and Safari, iChat, textEdit, Microsoft Word, Mail, iCal, AddressBook, Illustrator, iTunes, and Toast without a problem. how do I know? I'm running them right now. On a G4 no less! The system slows slightly. Very slightly. You really don't even notice it. And on my wifes G5 it is GONE. But certainly nothing like XP Pro.

I think you could go G5 for $4K. Logic EXS for $1K (maybe some better deals on eBay). VSL for whatever you are going to buy there, $3K? There, that's $8K. You just need an audio PCI or Firewire I/O of your choice from $100 to $1500. or you could use the OPTICAL 24Bit audio out of the G5s to a reciever with OPT input, or monitor through your DAT machine or CD Recorder.

And there are lots of benefits to going with an all-under-one-hood solution. And you could still use your current PC for extra Giga stuff. But likely you won't need to.

Evan Evans

@evanevans said:

... LOGIC doesn't access memory, it REQUESTS it. .... That's how right now on a 2GB G4 I can have 5GB loaded into LOGIC with no problems.

evan, there must be some misunderstanding going on, but maybe i'm simply not clever enough to understand it ...
exs uses logic's audio-engine to stream samples, having a descrete portion of them in ram, so it's impossible to *load* 5GB into 2GB ram. it _is_ possible to access an amount of 5 GB samples loading a certain percentage/part of each sample (depending on your settings each sample takes 100-170 Kb memory for buffering) so if one has 1 GB free memory you can access about 8000 samples, independently how large each single sample is.
nevertheless, if logic is able to address more than 2GB of requested memory or not is still not answered - but we will find that out soon
christian

Nightfly---- realisticly speaking, you didnt mention a budget range, but I think you can expect no less than 15K at minimum to get you started comfortably. Evan went through considerable efforts to lay out one possible concept, and I think he is right with his housenumber. In addition, I'd second his statement about time being that critical. Look, it's not only about writing the checks.... you gotta expect considerable time to set it up and get used to it, and I bet that wont happen in a few days, a lot depends on Templates to be developed by yourself if I am not mistaken. However, I wish you best of luck with it in deed!

CM---- Grin ;o} I WANT YOUR JOB!

cm, I believe the G5 uses DDR 400, not 4000 (PC3200). It's amazing how many of these unassociated numbers the brain is capable of remembering, but these are finally starting to go psssht right through my head.

Anyway, I generally use this site when ordering computer junk - not that the lowest price is always the one I go with:

http://www.pricewatch.com/

nick, you're right PC3200 = DDR400, sorry for the confusion
christian

@Another User said:

at last nobody was willing to confirm that logic or any other application will _use_ the 8GB until now and i doubt it will, because it's still a 32bit application - how should it address more than 2GB? yes, there are some workarounds to address more (~2.8GB) using 32 bit, but the application and the OS has to support this - nothing can be found which confirms this

please can somebody contradict and point me to a respective source?

I can't contradict you, but what I have read is that Panther is not a 64-bit OS - it's a 32-bit OS with 64-bit memory addressing. That's how they're getting all the current programs to work on it.

I hope to find out about Logic and 8GB at the AES convention tomorrow (he says, nervously watching the time and realizing he still has to pack and catch a plane in three hours!).

CM, I also want to explain what you probably are aware of: the size of the orchestrations is only one factor. As a matter of fact, last week I finished a huge orchestral/techno cue with everything but the kitchen sink in it, and the entire orchestra - all VSL - doesn't even fill up my 2GB Giga machine (all that's running on the Mac is Reason and a couple of tracks of Kompakt drums). Only a couple of the instruments are performace legatos, but the point remains: you want enough of the orchestra loaded and ready to go while you're writing. Otherwise it's like a violinist stopping to take another instrument out of the case every time he/she switches from long to short bowings!

Finally, Evyn, can you explain how you're loading 5GB into EXS! I want one of those!

@evanevans said:

... LOGIC doesn't access memory, it REQUESTS it. .... That's how right now on a 2GB G4 I can have 5GB loaded into LOGIC with no problems.

evan, there must be some misunderstanding going on, but maybe i'm simply not clever enough to understand it ...
exs uses logic's audio-engine to stream samples, having a descrete portion of them in ram, so it's impossible to *load* 5GB into 2GB ram. it _is_ possible to access an amount of 5 GB samples loading a certain percentage/part of each sample (depending on your settings each sample takes 100-170 Kb memory for buffering) so if one has 1 GB free memory you can access about 8000 samples, independently how large each single sample is.
nevertheless, if logic is able to address more than 2GB of requested memory or not is still not answered - but we will find that out soon
christian

I am telling you that based on my work under-the-hood of OSX, namely looking inside the UNIX based core Darwin, that no application truly accesses RAM. When LOGIC loads up the start-buffers for disk streaming for instruments, it tells the system I need THESE readily available. That's all it can really ask. The way the computer handles that request is up to the OS, in this case OSX, and Panther is going to be even more efficient ... but, basically what happens is the system says to itself, OK, you are requesting 5GB of readily available space, so I will put 1GB of that into RAM and 4GB onto a disk buffer. But, let's say in theory that hard drives were faster than RAM. Well it's going to be up to the OS to decide how to manage the 5GB of info that LOGIC is requesting get high priority so it's readily available. So in that theoretical case the OS will make the best performance decisions and put it all on the hard drive.

Anyway, you don't have to wait to find out if this is true. I am telling you it's the case. Last night I loaded 7GB worth of streams into LOGIC. That was split into 5.8GB of disk buffer and 1.2GB RAM.

I am going to say something here and I want you to repeat it like it's a mantra, all together now:

"THERE ARE NO RAM LIMITS IN OSX. APPLICATIONS DON'T ACCESS RAM."

It's hard to wrap your mind around it, but it's based on sophisticated new system architecture. When announcements of OSX were made years ago and they said it is a revolutionary system, unprecedented, and the best readily available commercial one available on the planet, they said that for good reasons. Eliminating RAM issues, was one, pre-emptive multitasking was another, stability, ... the list goes way on and on. If you aren't a OSX user then it's hard to appreciate because most of what makes it such a great operating system goes on in the background. But once you have used OSX for some intensive tasks, going back to XP Pro, ME, OS9, or whatever, just feels retarded, in the classical sense of the word.

Evan Evans

evan, besides i'm using osX since it's beta and also IRIX and BSD (which is the true origin of osX btw), multitasking is not a sensation ourdays - no?
i'm willing to follow your mantra, but tell me: what sense would be in getting samples from a harddisk, read them into a buffer on (another) harddisk and make an application beleive they will be immediately available - none (ok, using a solid state disk this would probably work). means: i can't beleive logic allows the OS to store streaming buffers on a harddisk ... ahh - you're talking maybe about audio-tracks?
anyway - i'll report back, how much samples we can fill into a G5, because this has been one of the most requested answers during the last weeks
christian

@Another User said:

...tell me: what sense would be in getting samples from a harddisk, read them into a buffer on (another) harddisk and make an application believe they will be immediately available - none (ok, using a solid state disk this would probably work). means: i can't beleive logic allows the OS to store streaming buffers on a harddisk ... ahh - you're talking maybe about audio-tracks?

no I am not talking about audio-tracks. I am talking about Audio Instruments, nameley EXS24mkII with VSL samples loaded. let me explain in detail:

The sense is that without having to rewrite their application, LOGIC could take advantage of any faster methods of data I/O that the OS would allow. You have to think with an open mind. Do not presume to think that RAM might be the fastest I/O method around. Soon we may see some new technology on a PCI card that stores data in crystals using laser data retrieval. Who knows? But, with the right drivers and the right OS update, OSX will do what it needs to give any program that needs HIGH PRIORITY I/O, the data from that location.

The point is, the computer is supposed to be the monster machine not the application. The application is supposed to provide functionality. And the OS in Apple's case is what makes it all happen. The OS manages prioiritized tasks as best as it can. If the OS ever gave control of it's host machine's RAM to an applicataion you would surely have machine crashes. But since OSX traps every application to their own space in virtual-land, it doesn't harm the system in any way because all I/O from the application goes through the OS. This is what gives us our new smile [:D] when an applicaiton crashes, and we don'thave to restart our computer and debug conflicting extensions and all that old school stuff. You just re-launch the app.

So, to answer your question, it makes all the sense that making OSX in the first place makes to have the data requested by LOGIC that it expects to be in RAM to be treated with the highest priority by the OS. Although the OS puts some of what's supposed to be in RAM onto the HD, with modern computers it is becoming to be irrelavant. But instead of having Emagic make Logic aware of how every different system reacts to different RAM installations etc., the OS just does it all. So as new computers come out and new technologies come out, all your old apps work without rewrites. Because if Apple comes up with some new more efficient way of passing fast data I/O of Applications, then Apple will supply the update, and ALL of teh applications running on that computer will benefit.

hoenstly, it's the way it should be. The technology should be harnassed by the OS first. It's not the application's place to assume that a certian computer or configuration is best for itself. if that were the case you'd see applications written only for specific computers/configurations.

OSX really is a beauty. I cannot even fathom all of it's beauty. Very few can. You'd have to know all that's going on under-the-hood to really appreciate it.

Now, to continue to answer your question about the effectiveness of such management, I think Emagic put a limit on how many samples you can have open to sort of optimize the live playback of their EXS sampler. Imagine if Logic had no limit on the number of samples that could be open. You could load 200,000 samples and OSX would put maybe 1.5GB in RAM and 15GB on disk buffer. When you playback, each stream would start with 10% in quick RAm playback and 90% coming from disk. This would result in anyof the following:
1) stuttered playback intially
2) Logic reporting disk too slow
3) overload alert
I think since Emagic knows how OSX works, they didn't wnat that happening. Which is why (in my other posts) they imposed a maximum of 8,192 files open at one time. And maybe that's based on installed RAM. They query that on opening logic (ever see the message "setting up memory buffers????) and than give you a scale(proportion) that would keep the disk stream buffers mostly in RAM to the point where live playback wouldn't suffer. The limit that Emagic imposes (if they do, it is still my presumption), would automatically ensure that most strams are coming from the RAM.

So ,if that's true, than Emagic did there own sort of "forcing" the system to use RAM, but ina creative way. unfortunately their creative way was to limit how many samples you can have loaded, even though OSX would let you load (based on my calculations with 2GB Ram), about 5-times as many, or around 50,000 samples. That's the practical limit under OSX right now. With Panther it will become UNLIMITED. Only dependant on how much you want to bog down your computer. (now do you know why companies use these boxes as servers? because they won't crash when there's lot's of users. Just go slow. And Panther will destroy the competition in this area)

You might be able to load 50,000 samples on current G4 systems, and the CPU might be able to handle playback, but the disk retrieval may be too slow to make it happen live without stuttering or completely stopping. So you mixdown the whole thing, or solo tracks, or deal with some occasional stuttering.

I much prefer a working unlimited system that works better when I use it the better way, than a system which LIMITS me. Say "NO" to limitations!

Evan Evans

Wow! Is this true, or the raving of a maniac? Maybe both... it certainly sounds interesting.

@William said:

Wow! Is this true, or the raving of a maniac? Maybe both... it certainly sounds interesting.

LOL. [[;)]]

No honestly, I am very intimate with the UNIX core and the bus architecture, the capabilities and limitations of OSX, G4s, G5s, LOGIC, EXS24mkII, and especially how it all related to VSL users.

So please tell me, William, which thing did you want me to go into? You say "is this true?" and I said a lot of things. I will elaborate or confirm validity if you specify what you want me to answer.

thanks,
Evan Evans

Evan,

I guess it's what you suggest about unlimited number of samples possible. (Though of course you're still limited in polyphony, aren't you?) If the operating system does this data management so well in relation to RAM, etc., and it can be done practically. I find the Mac os and EXS interesting because the problems I had with Gigastudio on XP pro tainted my view of those systems permanently.