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  3. Trumpet ensemble - Trumpets in B flat?

  • Trumpet ensemble - Trumpets in B flat?

    C
    C
    Hello all,

    I see that the solo trumpet instrument is of a C trumpet rather than the usual Bb trumpet. I'm wondering, with the 'Trumpet Ensemble' instruments -does the ensemble consist of C or Bb Trumpets?

    Reason I'm asking, is that I write a load of stuff in Bb and F to allow the timbre of trumpets to really shine through. You know, orchestral fanfares, big jaunty themes. The fewer valved notes, the closer you get to just using the natural harmonics of the tubes, the more 'brilliant' the sound... [:)]

    Cheers!

    Ben
  • W
    W
    You've got it exactly backward about Bflat trumpets being brighter or more heraldic-fanfare-sounding than C trumpets. C trumpets are MUCH brighter. In fact, in America they are used specifically when an arranger wants a brighter sound than the normal b flat. The only thing brighter currently used is a piccolo trumpet.
  • N
    N
    This is an interesting topic - I would venture to say that a section in C would be more typical of most orchestral music, even fanfarish styles. You can get a slightly different sound with a Bb section (although, one most determine how much of the change in sound is due to different players as opposed to using different instruments) - though to my ears a Bb section is closer to the sound of a Big Band trumpet section in timbre (more so than a C section at any rate.)

    If you want a really bright and clean section, it would be great to have an Eb trumpet section. It is my understanding that that is what you hear on many of the John Williams recordings of the past decade or so (for example, Jurassic Park.) The original Star Wars soundtrack recordings used a Bb section. You can definitely hear the difference.

    So maybe an Eb section would be cool to have somewhere down the road...
    I think it would definitely be a first in the sampling world.
  • W
    W
    You're right about the Eb, and it would be great to have those subtle variations in samples. I'm very interested (and startled) that they have sampled the BASS TRUMPET! I've been a brass player my whole life playing in every sort of ensemble and never seen one of them in person.
  • C
    C
    You chaps are fast repliers [:D]

    But no, I'm afraid I don't agree with you William. I know I don't have things back to front when dealing with brass instruments! C trumpets only sound brighter if you write in C!

    Having been a trumpet player in loads of different ensembles for the last 20 years I know that I want the (often brash) sound of a Bb trumpet ensemble.

    The Q is whether or not the ensembles feature Bb or C instruments... here's hoping Bb... heh [:)]

    (Edit - do you honestly think the piccolo tpt is brighter? I've found that although its range extends high beyond the common tpt, its timbre is nowhere near as sharp.)
  • W
    W
    Well, I defer to an honest to goodness trumpet player. I'm a horn player whose ears got deafened by many trumpet players over the years, so I can't argue with you! I'm glad to hear though that there are orchestral players like us using samplers.
  • C
    C
    Yeah it's definitely a good thing that more 'traditional' instrumentalists are getting into the whole technology side of music making. Mind you - it's only recently that technology has been able to get anywhere close to sounding as good as 'the real thing', orchestrally speaking. VSL is testament to that!

    slaroussels - I'm not sure about John Williams arrangements being for Eb tpts - Jurassic Park's main theme is in Bb... which would make me think that Bb instruments would have been used.

    Many of his themes, like the Superman theme or the Raiders March, flit around between keys - C, C#, Bb, F - you name it. Although I don't know what that means as to the trumpets that were used... [:)]
  • N
    N
    Although I'm a brass player (low brass), my comments about the Eb trumpets are solely based on talks with an ex-LA trumpet player. He claimed that Ebs were used on a number of those scores to achieve a brighter cleaner sound because the parts were so often written high and staccato. Apparently, it's a little easier to play high cleanly on an Eb. The key of the piece may have been a factor as well, but he didn't mention it. Most Williams pieces become very chromatic quickly regardless, however.

    The other scores you mentioned (Raider's, Superman) definitely sound like they were performed on Bbs, I agree.
  • N
    N
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    @Another User said:

    Most Williams pieces become very chromatic quickly regardless, however


    I blame for that to its wonderful Stravinsky influence. I haven´t read about John Williams´ influences but a lot of his music sounds influenced by ol´ Igor IMHO. [[;)]]

    ...gotta love "Symphony of Psalms" [H]
  • H
    H
    We plan to record also a solo Bb trumpet.

    Finally you will have alternatives for all major solo intruments:

    Two different flutes.
    Two different oboes (vienna and french modell)
    A and B clarinett

    C and B trumpet
    Vienna Horn and F/B double horn
    Tenor trombone and tenor/bass trombone

    all the best
    Herb
  • N
    N
    Wow, that'll be amazing. Maybe somewhere down the road Eb trumpet, descant horn, and alto trombone could be added to the list just to make it insanely complete. I see Eb clarinet parts often too, though I think they sound obnoxiously reedy. They could be part of Symphonic Cube version 15. [:)]
  • W
    W
    For a complete symphonic band representation you need the high eflat clarinet (as well as the bassett horn). Also, remember Mahler using that excessively reedy effect in the 2nd symphony?

    Speaking of band instruments I wonder if the Baritone Horn, as opposed to the often interchanged Euphonium, will be sampled. I'm also excited to hear about those additional instruments, especially the entire saxophone family which is almost unrepresented right now in samples except for "licks" and jazz/rock type things. I guess the Quantum Leap has them but haven't heard those.

    The contrabass sax is a frightening instrument. It's like a Bari Sax from Hell. I've been in the presence of a bass sax but only seen pictures of a contra bass and it is so large it basically makes the player seem attached to it rather than the other way around.
  • E
    E
    Will we ever see a Bb Trumpet Ensemble ? I find the C Trumpets way too bright and virtually unuseable.

    The C Trumpets in actual recordings usualyl sound synthy. I am not sure why the choice of C Trumpets for the library was decided. The Bb trumpets are much more convincing and blend better with the Horns.

    Evan Evans
  • N
    N
    Maybe it could be a 4 player section too, just to make it even more of a variation from the current C trumpet section.

    And while I'm asking for the moon, maybe an Eb section too? [:)]
  • T
    T
    I think sometimes there's a convusion when people use the word "bright".
    The main thing to remember is the range of the instrument. A Bb trumpet has a slightly lower range than a C one, so playing the same concert pitch, the Bb will have to strain more, and therefore stick out more. I think this is what some people refer to as brightness.
    A cello section playing C5 sounds bright because it's high in its range. A violin section playing C5 doesn't sound as bright because it's in the middle of its range. Basically it all just comes down to range. As far as I know, every instruments' upper range is pretty bright.

    Anthony Lombardi
    www.mp3.com/alombardi
  • E
    E
    I'm not trying to argue here, but I thought long and hard about answerring because I am contesting what the previous poster and previous posters have said about the differences between Bb and C trumpets and the word BRIGHT.

    Ok, here's the lowdown, FROM AN EXPERT on the subject.

    C Trumpets:
    frequently are constructed with a copper bell system
    Have a narrower tubing and less flared swelling throughout
    Have a smaller valve structure
    Utilize a smaller mouthpiece with a sharper conical bore
    Smaller mouthpiece creates faster wind cycles

    Bb Trumpets
    Are typically brass from start to finish
    Use a larger cup for the mouthpiece
    Larger cup creates larger slower wind cycles
    Have larger valves/pistons
    Have a shorter but quicker bell flare
    Have a more extreme tubing flaring througout


    Ok. There are many other physical and scientific differences between the two. I am not going to mention them all.

    Now, regardless of their pitch, even if they were both Bb or C instruments, the fact of the matter is that, regardless of pitch, the harmonic and fundamentals structure of the C Trumpet, because of it's physical characteristics aside from pitch (length of overall trumpet), have more partials and overall frequencies present at greater proportional volumes in the higher frequency spectrum than the same note played on a Bb trumpet, even if they were the same transposing instrument. This has to do with the many physical differences I mentioned above.

    This result of greater volume of upper partials, in all certain terminolgies translates to what is generally accepted by most of the world as BRIGHTER. Yes, the C Trumpets ARE brighter.

    Now, taking into account the physical differences and the transposition differences, the C Trumpets have the following advantages over teh Bb trumpets:
    They require less air per note
    They can play with more agility
    They can especially reach about a minor 3rd higher than the Bb trumpet because of all the physical differences combined, without any further emboucher or airflow changes from teh the same note on the Bb
    They can start and end a note more quickly
    They will pierce through the same orchestration better than a Bb trumpet regardless of pitch (read: also in the low registers)

    Now, on the flip side of the C Trumpets which are BRIGHTER, are the Bb Trumpets which are referred to as WARMER because of their opposite mechanics from teh C Trumpets.

    Without getting to labored here, let's just say that the Bb trumpets do not have those things that I mentioned above regarding the C Trumpets special abilities.

    One thing worth great mention is how nearly non-existant any composing is in the low register of the trumpet. From E3 to C4. A professional with the right mouthpiece can use this range for slow to medium passages and the trumpet section itself can sound fantastic together in chords harmonized with the trombones in this low register. It really has yet to be done. But I hope to change that.

    Evan Evans
  • W
    W
    I said they were brighter some time ago, and you don't have to be an "expert" on the subject. Just listen to them live.

    BTW - Are you a trumpet player?
  • N
    N
    Thanks for the detailed post Evan. You bring up the very valid point that the mouthpiece also has a lot to do with the sound of the instrument (not to mention the same instrument can sound different depending on who's playing it.) Quite a few trumpet pro's I know will use a different mouthpiece on the same horn depending on whether it's a "jazz" or "legit" gig. The jazz mouthpiece being of smaller bore/cup size and therefore brighter.

    Many brass players take this to an extreme and have detachable rims/shanks/etc. so they can customize the characteristics of the mouthpiece from gig to gig. And then there are the double horn players with detachable bells...
  • D
    D
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    @Another User said:

    And then there are the double horn players with detachable bells...

    Unlike jazz pianists, who have detachable cigarettes.....

    David T
  • M
    M
    I "think" the solo trumpet legato without vibrato was played on a Bb trumpet based on the range. It can go down to low E concert pitch. Were as the other legato samples were played on C and can only go down to low A, which isn't even the full low range of the C trumpet.

    So if you have the perfomance set you already have at least one Bb trumpet sample.

    I could be wrong I guess, the low E could have been created by slowing the sample down, especialy since it doesn't use vibrato. But based on the quality of this library I would not think that would be the case. If it is the case I would only suggest that the low register of the trumpet can be very distintive and I hope it is fully sampled in future editions. You should also sample the Bb trumpet playing down to low Eb which they can and should be able to do with the help of the slides. All the trumpet players will be fimilar with the Ein Heldenleben excerpt that goes down to the low concert Eb.

    To add to the discussion on trumpet issues, I am a trumpet player and have always been intriuged by the trumpet key issue.
    I know from my trumpet instructor who did his disseration on studio trumpet playing and who sat in on many film scoring sessions that in the main trumpet lick of jurassic park, a unison passage for 4 trumpets in the upper tessitura, every single player was on a diffrent horn Eb, Bb, C and they blended perfectly as you can hear on the recording. Basicly trumpet selection (and instrument selection in general) is a "player's problem" and not a composer's. Thats one reason why film composers just right every thing for Bb trumpets instead specifying what trumpet they want, they know that player can best decide what horn will give them the best results. (The other reason is of course they have to pay them time and a half if they specify more than one kind of horn.) Thats my two cents.