Maybe it could be a 4 player section too, just to make it even more of a variation from the current C trumpet section.

And while I'm asking for the moon, maybe an Eb section too? [:)]

I think sometimes there's a convusion when people use the word "bright".
The main thing to remember is the range of the instrument. A Bb trumpet has a slightly lower range than a C one, so playing the same concert pitch, the Bb will have to strain more, and therefore stick out more. I think this is what some people refer to as brightness.
A cello section playing C5 sounds bright because it's high in its range. A violin section playing C5 doesn't sound as bright because it's in the middle of its range. Basically it all just comes down to range. As far as I know, every instruments' upper range is pretty bright.

Anthony Lombardi
www.mp3.com/alombardi

I'm not trying to argue here, but I thought long and hard about answerring because I am contesting what the previous poster and previous posters have said about the differences between Bb and C trumpets and the word BRIGHT.

Ok, here's the lowdown, FROM AN EXPERT on the subject.

C Trumpets:
frequently are constructed with a copper bell system
Have a narrower tubing and less flared swelling throughout
Have a smaller valve structure
Utilize a smaller mouthpiece with a sharper conical bore
Smaller mouthpiece creates faster wind cycles

Bb Trumpets
Are typically brass from start to finish
Use a larger cup for the mouthpiece
Larger cup creates larger slower wind cycles
Have larger valves/pistons
Have a shorter but quicker bell flare
Have a more extreme tubing flaring througout


Ok. There are many other physical and scientific differences between the two. I am not going to mention them all.

Now, regardless of their pitch, even if they were both Bb or C instruments, the fact of the matter is that, regardless of pitch, the harmonic and fundamentals structure of the C Trumpet, because of it's physical characteristics aside from pitch (length of overall trumpet), have more partials and overall frequencies present at greater proportional volumes in the higher frequency spectrum than the same note played on a Bb trumpet, even if they were the same transposing instrument. This has to do with the many physical differences I mentioned above.

This result of greater volume of upper partials, in all certain terminolgies translates to what is generally accepted by most of the world as BRIGHTER. Yes, the C Trumpets ARE brighter.

Now, taking into account the physical differences and the transposition differences, the C Trumpets have the following advantages over teh Bb trumpets:
They require less air per note
They can play with more agility
They can especially reach about a minor 3rd higher than the Bb trumpet because of all the physical differences combined, without any further emboucher or airflow changes from teh the same note on the Bb
They can start and end a note more quickly
They will pierce through the same orchestration better than a Bb trumpet regardless of pitch (read: also in the low registers)

Now, on the flip side of the C Trumpets which are BRIGHTER, are the Bb Trumpets which are referred to as WARMER because of their opposite mechanics from teh C Trumpets.

Without getting to labored here, let's just say that the Bb trumpets do not have those things that I mentioned above regarding the C Trumpets special abilities.

One thing worth great mention is how nearly non-existant any composing is in the low register of the trumpet. From E3 to C4. A professional with the right mouthpiece can use this range for slow to medium passages and the trumpet section itself can sound fantastic together in chords harmonized with the trombones in this low register. It really has yet to be done. But I hope to change that.

Evan Evans

I said they were brighter some time ago, and you don't have to be an "expert" on the subject. Just listen to them live.

BTW - Are you a trumpet player?

Thanks for the detailed post Evan. You bring up the very valid point that the mouthpiece also has a lot to do with the sound of the instrument (not to mention the same instrument can sound different depending on who's playing it.) Quite a few trumpet pro's I know will use a different mouthpiece on the same horn depending on whether it's a "jazz" or "legit" gig. The jazz mouthpiece being of smaller bore/cup size and therefore brighter.

Many brass players take this to an extreme and have detachable rims/shanks/etc. so they can customize the characteristics of the mouthpiece from gig to gig. And then there are the double horn players with detachable bells...

I "think" the solo trumpet legato without vibrato was played on a Bb trumpet based on the range. It can go down to low E concert pitch. Were as the other legato samples were played on C and can only go down to low A, which isn't even the full low range of the C trumpet.

So if you have the perfomance set you already have at least one Bb trumpet sample.

I could be wrong I guess, the low E could have been created by slowing the sample down, especialy since it doesn't use vibrato. But based on the quality of this library I would not think that would be the case. If it is the case I would only suggest that the low register of the trumpet can be very distintive and I hope it is fully sampled in future editions. You should also sample the Bb trumpet playing down to low Eb which they can and should be able to do with the help of the slides. All the trumpet players will be fimilar with the Ein Heldenleben excerpt that goes down to the low concert Eb.

To add to the discussion on trumpet issues, I am a trumpet player and have always been intriuged by the trumpet key issue.
I know from my trumpet instructor who did his disseration on studio trumpet playing and who sat in on many film scoring sessions that in the main trumpet lick of jurassic park, a unison passage for 4 trumpets in the upper tessitura, every single player was on a diffrent horn Eb, Bb, C and they blended perfectly as you can hear on the recording. Basicly trumpet selection (and instrument selection in general) is a "player's problem" and not a composer's. Thats one reason why film composers just right every thing for Bb trumpets instead specifying what trumpet they want, they know that player can best decide what horn will give them the best results. (The other reason is of course they have to pay them time and a half if they specify more than one kind of horn.) Thats my two cents.

@William said:

I said they were brighter some time ago, and you don't have to be an "expert" on the subject. Just listen to them live.

BTW - Are you a trumpet player?

William,

Indeed. Guilty as charged. Although I do not consider myself a musician anymore. I don't play professionally. I am a composer, thick and through. I leave the playing to the musicians.

Evan

@slaroussels said:

Thanks for the detailed post Evan. You bring up the very valid point that the mouthpiece also has a lot to do with the sound of the instrument (not to mention the same instrument can sound different depending on who's playing it.) Quite a few trumpet pro's I know will use a different mouthpiece on the same horn depending on whether it's a "jazz" or "legit" gig. The jazz mouthpiece being of smaller bore/cup size and therefore brighter.

Many brass players take this to an extreme and have detachable rims/shanks/etc. so they can customize the characteristics of the mouthpiece from gig to gig. And then there are the double horn players with detachable bells...

Yes. Actually when I do sessions and I have too few players, and I want to overdub, I always DEMAND that they all switch their mouthpiece to another for the overdub. It works like a charm. And I have been known to indicate which mouthpiece type and bore in my score and parts because there is a difference. A lot of players like to use shallow cups so they don't have to work so hard and they can hit high notes easier (because of the faster wind cycles), but the partials also become brighter, and I usually write for warm Trumpets, that's my style. So I ask them to stay away from the 5s and 3s, and still to the 7s.

Evan Evans

@Another User said:

I could be wrong I guess, the low E could have been created by slowing the sample down, especialy since it doesn't use vibrato. But based on the quality of this library I would not think that would be the case. If it is the case I would only suggest that the low register of the trumpet can be very distintive and I hope it is fully sampled in future editions. You should also sample the Bb trumpet playing down to low Eb which they can and should be able to do with the help of the slides. All the trumpet players will be fimilar with the Ein Heldenleben excerpt that goes down to the low concert Eb.

To add to the discussion on trumpet issues, I am a trumpet player and have always been intriuged by the trumpet key issue.
I know from my trumpet instructor who did his disseration on studio trumpet playing and who sat in on many film scoring sessions that in the main trumpet lick of jurassic park, a unison passage for 4 trumpets in the upper tessitura, every single player was on a diffrent horn Eb, Bb, C and they blended perfectly as you can hear on the recording. Basicly trumpet selection (and instrument selection in general) is a "player's problem" and not a composer's. Thats one reason why film composers just right every thing for Bb trumpets instead specifying what trumpet they want, they know that player can best decide what horn will give them the best results. (The other reason is of course they have to pay them time and a half if they specify more than one kind of horn.) Thats my two cents.

yes, they all blend with each other perfectly and by having at least one Bb in there they have a link to blend with the Horns, but they could have been better served in perhaps a different orchestration by doing WHAT THE COMPOSER SAID!

We composers (and perhaps only a select few who are trumpet players, HINT, HINT), are acutely aware if the musicians are cheating by using shorter instruments. I think they should do as directed. if they can't reach the notes than they shouldn't have shown up. I for one like players who can play the way I asked them to. Those are the ones I hire again.

But, whatver. With VSL I don't need to work with real musicians anymore. For now that's an exciting prospect. I love control. And VSL is that.

Evan

Another side note to the Jurassic Park thread is that I've been told John Williams has used the same lead trumpet player for all his trumpet sessions (the principle of the Boston Pops, I foget his name) for many years. I don't know if he still does and this is second hand knowledge. He flies the guy out to wherever the sessions are taking place. I guess that's a good way to keep your trumpet sound consistent. And not many people complain about JW's brass. Though you can tell on the Jurassic Park soundtrack that they're using at least one Eb (I always thought it was the whole section, so I learned something today.)

As for the solo VSL trumpet, I'm pretty sure it's played on a C for all the patches, but I'll let Herb confirm that. He's also mentioned that he will probably record a Bb solo trumpet. Which will be great, but I would prefer muted brass before a trumpet in a second key. Though a second trumpet would allow 2 player unison lines which would be nice.

I'm going conform with Slaroussel, that the muted brass are most important for the next step.
That will be our main focus regarding brass for the Symphonic Cube.
Also the 8 horn section and - good news - Yamaha sponsered us and lent us for one year a triple horn. So there will be a second solohorn in the Symphonic Cube.

A solo trumpet in B will be done, but I don't know if we can schedule it for the next Cube.

Regarding a different trumpet section, I'm personally much more interested in an Aida-trumpet section. To be honest I never heard them (in my two years in the opera, Aida was never in reportoire).
I hope that these instruments are perfect for typical fanfare motives, giving an unique and convincing sound.

best wishes
Herb

Triple horn = awesome!! Funny, I was just thinking last night how cool it would be to have the descant register of a high F or triple horn.

@herb said:

I'm going conform with Slaroussel, that the muted brass are most important for the next step.
That will be our main focus regarding brass for the Symphonic Cube.
Also the 8 horn section and - good news - Yamaha sponsered us and lent us for one year a triple horn. So there will be a second solohorn in the Symphonic Cube.

A solo trumpet in B will be done, but I don't know if we can schedule it for the next Cube.

Regarding a different trumpet section, I'm personally much more interested in an Aida-trumpet section. To be honest I never heard them (in my two years in the opera, Aida was never in reportoire).
I hope that these instruments are perfect for typical fanfare motives, giving an unique and convincing sound.

best wishes
Herb

All that sounds great. And is completely understandeable.

I just want to go on record to say that I, personally, feel it was a bad decision to initially go with the C section. That's just me. And you know from my personal emails how much I hail this project and all the results.

It makes complete sense to do mutes in C at this point, maybe some more dynamics, and a 2nd C solo trumpet. I completely understand and see how that is the best decision for the library at this point.

I honestly believe however, that C trumpet was the wrong choice for initial trumpets. It isn't a selfish belief either. All my film composer friends (big guys in Hollywood) say the trumpets are too bright and sound fake because of that. It isn't because they actually sound fake, but in real life C trumpets have a rather lifeless quality because of their lack of warmth.

I don't really think there's much debate either, perhaps you agree. You went with the C. The Bb sounds better and is more useful to the people I am normally associated with. But maybe that group was smaller than your target group. Let's pick up our chips and move on. I accept your path for the C, and simply anxiously await a complete Bb section, and solo Trumpet.

For now I can get a warmer result from the Cs, by pitch bending down one half step and playing transposed up 1 half step. That'll be a quick fix. Anything will be more realistic than the raw C samples.

Evan

I totally disagree with this last post and think it is an example of someone taking a personal preference and acting as if it is a fact. It isn't. I can't believe that somebody actually doesn't like the incredibly detailed, beautifully played and masterfully recorded trumpet samples because they are in C and you've decided that sounds fake. Bullshit.

If you can't make the trumpet samples provided by this library sound real you're doing something very wrong. Also your "Big Guys in Hollywood" - I for one am not impressed by those credentials.

Wow, it's pretty strange to come back to a forum after a few months away to find one of your topics active!

I think all this talk of 'warmth' and 'brightness' is a little subjective.

I maintain that a trumpet part written in C will sound bright on C trumpets and a trumpet part written in Bb will sound bright on Bb trumpets, purely because the air flow is less obstructed when writing in the keys which see the instrumentalist using less valved notes. I also agree with the point put across earlier where it was said that it's primarily a 'performer' problem rather than a 'composer' problem. If you've written a tpt part in C that you want to sound very bright and tight (and have scored as such), then the performer should pick a C tpt to play the part, if the notes demand it. Of course, if you're a composer who specialises in brass, you can help the player make this decision by specifying in the score which tpt to use.

I think the tpt samples in this library sound pretty good. But I have to level a couple of personal, possibly subjective, criticisms.

Firstly that the tpts attacks have been neglected slightly. Often, you can find attacks of a sustained note undercutting the pitch of the sustained note. This is problematic when trying to play melodic passages with the sustained tpt patch, as often a grace note is not held long enough to allow its true pitch to develop - ergo, for the brief time that it plays, it sounds flat. Maybe the forte legato tpts will solve this problem.

Secondly that the brash upper dynamic of the tpt section is not represented by this library at all. You know, the fff that hurts string players' ears [;)] Ocasionally I want overblown, screaming, wild trumpets. I can't get them from VSL, yet... [:D]

Perhaps it is the fact the c trumpet is the standard in profesional orchestras that made it the obvious descion. 99% of orchestral (non-studio) playing is done on C trumpets. I defy you to tell me Bud Herseth sounds fake playing his C trumpet.

One final point that should be mentioned, though I'm sure everyone who has contributed to this post is well aware of it, is the effect of the room on the sound of the brass. I'm hoping MIR will help make the brass sound even more warm and/or powerful when that's the sound I'm looking for.

@magates said:

Perhaps it is the fact the c trumpet is the standard in professional orchestras that made it the obvious decision. 99% of orchestral (non-studio) playing is done on C trumpets. I defy you to tell me Bud Herseth sounds fake playing his C trumpet.

We do not have Bud here. I am talking about sample-realized trumpet sections. The VSL and Miroslav Vitous are the most useable I've found because of their high quality and respect to the performance. However, as subjective as it is, I will very strongly say that the Bb trumpet sounds more realistic to the REAL world when sample-realized than the C trumpet.

I dare any and all of you to play a segment on C trumpets, and the same segment on Bb trumpets for your wifes, girlfriends, uncles, grandmas, and ask them which one sounds the most realistic and which one sounds the most cheesy, and you will soon find out what I already know. As a film composer, my opinions and strategies for orchestrating are far more popular than anything found in the classical world. My music is to convince millions upon millions of the emotions I am trying to convey in the music while simultaneously (on the lower budget projects) making sure that the fewest amount of them think the music sounds "cheap", "fake", or "cheesy". And I will go to my grave preaching that the Bb Trumpet will work better than the C in those cases.

Now, as in my previous post, I understand that the decision that I found bad, the C trumpets over the Bb, is an opinion of a select few, ... however I stand by it for two reasons:

1) The C Trumpets do sound more fake to people who aren't musicians (in sample-realized renditions)
2) A better strategy would have been to have Bb trumpets, followed by Eb trumpets, followed by C, then any extraneous models.

The reasons for number 1 above are that the higher and more brilliant tone of the C more quickly reveal it's synthetic qualities when in an orchestration. The mellower tone of the Bb blends better and "masks" the synthetic qualities.

The reasons behind number 2 above, are that having a Bb trumpet first would allow EVERYONE to have a convincing trumpet section that blends with the horns, the most commonly combined instrument group in orchestrations other than the trombones. Then we could move right on to the Eb for the "bright" enthusiasts and those who think that being technically correct with their sample-realizations will result in more pleasurable listening (possible, but not yet heard in my circles (my circles are used to pitch shifting and mangling samples so that they sound more realistic ... after all we're making recordings that people listen to hear, not thesis works for professors)). Now we'd have a spread of a 5th in timbre difference. A wonderful spread for a wide range of needs ... blending when needing something in between. Then we do the C Trumpets to complete the library, and fill in people's needs for a slightly brighter more brilliant trumpet section. Of course all with corresponding solo trumpet along the way.

We could probably argue fundementally about this forever, but, anyone who wants to, please bear in mind my perspective, lifestyle, and where I am coming from. I am the type of person who believes FUNDAMENTALLY that the final listening experience from a non-musical ear is the ultimate goal. So please, don't argue with me if you think that you are FUNDAMENTALLY the type of person who thinks that the best listening experience is by musicians who can appreciate technical differences and nuances in the recordings over the layman. I write music for the common man. We obviously cannot put fundamental differences aside because they are all fairly valid, just from different perspectives. So please bear where I am coming from and why I say the things I do before you tell me I am wrong or flawed.

There are many facts in this world that contradict each other. We just haven't discovered that the differences are in the details waiting to be discovered.

Thanks,
Evan Evans

P.S. I have written sample-realized music for over 5 years now. Anyone who thinks I'm full of it, or crazy, I stand by my work, even if the old stuff was made with just a handful of gear compared to now (all in the computer and 15 times more powerful than my best rack of last year). I will let my music speak for the validity of my expressions. Anyone interested can email me and I'll email you links to my music tracks.