Hahaha!
You guys crack me up! [:D]
You guys crack me up! [:D]
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@William said:
Also, we are having a heat wave here in Nevada, but it rarely gets over 105F and I make really good lemonade.
Do you know that it rained every single day here in June? Middle England is currently still under water. None of them can believe it. Also, none of them understand - 'don't build houses on a flood plain'.
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@William said:
Also, we are having a heat wave here in Nevada, but it rarely gets over 105F and I make really good lemonade.
Tell you what, the whole proposition is very interesting, I just have a problem with the lemonade, if you serve me cold beer I'll do your house work while I'm there, but no windows!
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@magates said:
We can close this thread,
What?!?!? Are you mad? You said there are 'named' actors in this film. That's what you said. You said that. You stated that. We need to know how they're getting paid. Milk? Eggs? Sides of beef? I hesitate to say ribs of pork because I understand you live in Los Angeles - but this could change the course of history in film making.
Instead of seeing all those salaries on imbd - we could see what Bruce Willis barered for doing Die Hard 4.0. Think of it.
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Magates,
I don't think it had anything to do with you, if I may make the comparison, the way afro-american were treated in the past and today comedians as Chris Rock will take advantage of this to humor people, and we know musician have always struggled to make a buck so this was hard to resist but I don't think these jokes were related to your original post, just an excuse for us to make bad jokes. [[;)]]
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Then you need to get more money from the company, because if anyone else is getting paid, the orchestrator should be getting paid. Sorry, but that is how things are.
If someone is to do this for free for you, it's only for themselves and whatever reasons they have. But they will realize later that they should've pushed for more.
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@magates said:
look, my orchestrations skills are top notch. The guy who agreed to do it is actually paying orchestrators just to have me orchestrate his work in the future. capisci?
Of course. Matt you need to lighten up just a tad. Guy is right on the money - or in this case the milk and eggs. Just musicians making jokes - hopefully at your expense - sorry, there I go again. Expense is inappropriate in this instance. [:D] [:D] [:D]
You're definitely one of the VSL family and I for one, always enjoy listening to your output. I don't always like it, but I always enjoy listening to it.
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I shouldn't need defend my position here but because there is a lack of clarity I will. First, I understand well that most people are struggling to find enough work and asking for someone to work for nothing is wrong. I would never do that.
If I thought I could offer enough money for it to be fair I would do that. But I simply can't afford the money. What I am giving to those who have already agreed to help is MORE service in exchange - in quantity - regardless of what you think of the subjective quality. It works well for those who agreed to work with me (and who know the quality of my work). I don't understand your problem with it - unless you just think I am a terrible at what I do - which is why I was insulted by the sarcasm. It implied that not only am I not special but that my work has little value to anyone.
To me and for those who agreed to help this was a good solution - it created more work for myself in the future and got me the help I needed now and secured help for them in the future. If you would never have need of my help I can see how it could be construed as insulting. The only reason one might need my help is if he or she knew they would be facing deadlines similar to mine in the future - and wanted to get that help secured for the future by giving help now. Does it make more sense now? In addition I also posted this same exact request other places where the readers might not have the skills with synhtestration as I am sure most here do.
Money is just an exchange of value. I am giving more value back than what I receive. What's wrong with that?
By the way this not a large budget film. I am not being selfish here and I couldn't possibly have gotten more money from the director who is personally financing the film.
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not sure now if i shall be relieved to hear that film financing is not only in austria an expensive hobby in some cases ...
just yesterday i've heard a statement from blood sweat & tears that formerly more musicians got a real chance by the recording industry and IMO this is even more true with movies.
if some creative people wouldn't allow theirselves to work for little or possibly no money from time to time, a significant amount of work could never be published.
my 2c only, christian
and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds. -
Matt, no insult was intended, Humour, good or bad is still free, yes?
While i try to understand what you're doing, and i assume this is an investment in the future, i'm less inclined to see this as a barter of sorts, and that's not because of your offer of work in return, but a confirmation of the ever degrading confirmation of the professional status of orchestrators, etc.. It's not enough that work gets a little harder to find, but that those who have a lot of cash to invest in film, and make large profits, see orchestrators and other related crafts as less than worthy of a decent return, simply because they don't have to pay them as much, and don't consider them important enough.
Have you noticed the trend in Horrowood, for example? The same themes appearing like pages in a comic book in an ever decreasing pool of originality, and risk taking? Same thing happens in the concert world, with many orchestras and their administrators absolving themselves of the cultural responsibility of introducing new work alongside the standards, simply because the standards put bums on seats and put cash in the pockets of all concerned immediately.
It's a short term view, and while i'm not pointing the finger at you, the more freebies that are eagerly accepted, the more the bigger players consider themselves free of blame for the scenario they created, of lowering the professional standing of the craftsmen and women who help bring a creative effort to life. Personally, i don't think you've done yourself a favour here, because if a director can't find the finance for the composer/orchestrator on top of the other musical costs, then either you're not exactly treating this as a business, or you're supremely confident this mighty effort on your part will pay dividends. And it tells you something about the standing you're held in by the fellow, doesn't it?
Another question to ask here is, if the director is financing this himself, and one would assume he's tried to source the cash from investors first, why wouldn't they give him the cash?
Good luck.
Christian, film making has become expensive all over the planet, lol.
But i wonder if this scenario actually has an opportunity within it. As audiences get bored with the formulaic stuff, they may start to look beyond the mainstream, and in doing so, encourage investors to take a further risk or two, in the pursuit of healthy returns. Breaking the back of the cabal controlling theatres, cinemas, and corporate filmaking won't be easy, but if their profits dip far enough from audience boredom, then the structure may change.
Just my 8mm's worth!
Alex.
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alex, reading the line
the more the bigger players consider themselves free of blame for the scenario they created
i've noticed to have left out a basic consideration which is of course true and somehow leading to an undesirable automatism.
on the other hand from my personal experience the best counterexample is The Venice Procect which never had happended if everybody had kept waiting until a full regular financing had been completed - not to support such projects would mean to miss a unique chance forever.
if someone or something has the power to convince enough people its worth the effort, it might be admissible to *break the rules*
christian
and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds. -
Okay let me put some numbers out there to make it clearer. This film's budget is just over 200k - not music budget - the entire film - I begged for $8,000 to record with orchestra - and the director literally said - well I guess I can just wait a few more years to get a new car. A typical music budget is 1-5% so 2-10k is about right.
One orchestrator offered to do the job for 25k - and that might be fair - on a studio film - but how am I going to afford that? This isn't even really orchestration proper - it's much easier - a good copyist could do it just as well - heck I could probably teach my mom to do it.
This isn't a film anyone is working on to make money. We are all doing it for other reasons. I am doing it to build experience, credits and my "reel" I am all of 24 years old and I've been out of school all of 2 years.
I think if you look for the negative in life you WILL find it. If you are prepared for and expect to see a lack of work you will literally notice lack and ignore opportunity. This isn't metaphysical - you have something called a reticulating activation system - that tells your brain what to notice and ignore. So, be careful what you tell yourself. If you constantly are saying work is scarce, no one values my work, there are no opportunities - you will get that. Instead feed yourself positive thoughts. It's all about attitude. It IS possible to make a GREAT living as a composer or orchestrator - but you have to be willing to have the right attitude. and no I am not implying that you have to barter with me to prove you have the right attitude.
