Pops and Clicks (and other problems)

[ColinThomson]

I am running VSL SE in Logic Pro 7.2.3, and I have about 18 tracks with VSL instruments, about a full orchestra. When I try and play something there were tons of pops and clicks, so I have been freezing all the trakes in Logic that I am not using. This has helped a lot (althought not completely). When I record there are some pops, but then I freeze that track as well and it all plays back fine. My RAM usage widget shows that I am using 96% of it (I have 2 GB installed on my macbook pro). Is this a RAM problem? Do I have to get more RAM installed (I would have to get one or two sticks of 2 GB of RAM, since I am using all of the slots i have in my macbook).

I also have an unrealated (I think) problem. When I record some of a track and play it back, Logic will often play the last note that I played when it is supposed to, but also in another second or two. This is the best way that I can describe what is happening. Hope someone has some answers for me. Thanks.

[ColinThomson]

Did more tests to find out about the Ram situation. In Logic Pro 7 I can only load five instances of VSL before it shows 98% of my 2 GB of RAM being used on the widget. This does not seem right to me. Is two Gb of RAM just not enough? At this rate I could only get in about ten instances if I had 4 GB of RAM. Isn't VSE supposed to be the "laptop version". Any help would be VERY appreciated. Thanks.

[stevesong]

Colin:

I'd first suggest checking Logic's I/O buffer settings (Choose Audio preferences, click the "Drivers" tab and you'll find this setting). Try increasing the buffer setting. I've found that settings of 512k and 1024k eliminate pops and clicks - although they do increase latency. On what drive are the samples stored - - are they on the MacBook's internal drive or on an external firewire drive? If they are on the internal drive this might be a source of the problem since that drive is much slower than the drives in desktop machines or most external firewire drives. (The samples are streaming from the drive.) Are you using an audio interface or the MacBook's built-in-audio? A separate audio nterface offloads some of the signal processing from the computer's CPU to the audio interface. Give us a precise description of the whole system you are using and people will be bettr able to advise you.

I hope this helpful.

[ColinThomson]

Thanks so much for the reply. Here is my setup:
Midi Controler: Kurzweil PC1X
Midi-to-USB: Midisport 2x2
Computer: 15 inch MacBook Pro, 2.16 GHZ Processor, 2 GB RAM, 160 GB 5400 RPM internal Hard Drive, and I am using the macbook's built-in audio.
USB hub holding Logic pro 7 key, Vienna key, and 500 GB 7200 RPM Western Digital external hard drive, holding all samples.

When I put the I/O buffer setting to 512 I get all kinds of core audio overload messages, and last time Logic froze on me. So I have had the setting on 32 because that way I don't have any core audio problems.
Sorry to be so naive, but what sort of audio interface are you talking about? I look up the term on Muscians Friend and I get a bunch of products like my Midisport 2x2, but I don't think that is what you are talking about. Could you provide a link of a good one for me? Thanks so much for your help.

[cm]

colin, the *32* must be a typo ... or it is the reason, because you can't fill such a tiny buffer fast enough without a really fast harddrive.
also this looks like a core solo and not a core 2 duo proBook and the audio overload does probably originate from not enough CPU power left (watch the activity monitor). harddrive connected via USB is not the best solution, but shouldn't matter at first.
christian

[ColinThomson]

I'll play with the I/O buffer size, but bigger ones have been a problem for the core audio. Like I said before, at 512 I got all kinds of core audio overload messages.

This is a 2.16 intel core duo processor, so that shouldn't be a problem.

This is my MacBook Pro. The 15 inch, 2.16 core duo processor, and uppgraded to 160 GB hard drive.

http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/

Thanks

[hermitage59]

@ColinThomson said:

I'll play with the I/O buffer size, but bigger ones have been a problem for the core audio. Like I said before, at 512 I got all kinds of core audio overload messages.

This is a 2.16 intel core duo processor, so that shouldn't be a problem.

This is my MacBook Pro. The 15 inch, 2.16 core duo processor, and uppgraded to 160 GB hard drive.

http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/

Thanks

Colin,
I can only speak from a modest degree of skill with computers, but i have an old G4 laptop while studying here in Moscow. Two things bumped my capacity to load more instruments. (I'm not using VSL, but still have a challenge to play a complete orchestra at once.)
An I/O buffer size of 512/256/take your pick. The coreaudio overload messages aren't always related to the buffer size. If you search the Apple forums for this mesaage, they have a useful 'optimum settings' article that will help you get the best out of your system. I get coreaudio messages mainly due to the CPU trying to process all the midi, and match it up with samples. I have two usb midi keyboard/controllers, and separated them, putting one each on two powered hubs. That helped.
If you rely solely on 'internal instruments', that is, you don't mix Audio Instruments and straight Audio tracks, but just use AI's, then Buffer size versus latency won't matter as much. For example, when i plonk MIDI in with only EXS's or AU's, i use a higher buffer setting (1024), but i start mixing AI and straight Audio, then i knock it down a bit, with freezing to help the process. Maybe this could help.

Synchronisation. It's worth checking just how you're synced together. Is it Midi Clock? MTC? MMC? Is your keyboard trying to send clock (whatever type you choose) at the same time as Logic? I know this seems simple, but sometimes i overlook the obvious, and it may well be the same for others, overcome with musical enthusiasm, as i often am. I also found that Built In Audio worked a lot better with fewer error messages, when i got this sorted out. (It's worth checking the manual of your keyboard to find out how it receives or transmits clock. You can check which one you have activated by clicking and holding down the synchronisation button on the toolbar. If you clock with Logic as master, then turn off auto sync, e.g....)

Putting the external sample drive in a firewire box.

And i'm experimenting with two further external options at the moment.

Plugging a SATA drive into a cardbuss slot.
Exploring the potential of putting an external drive in an ethernet box.

I changed the internal drive from 4,500 to 5,400rpm, but am loath to go any higher in speed, as i think the extra heat generated will toast the computer.

The big slowdown that i can see from your specs, is the external drive on USB. I found this to be a major problem, due to the variability of consistency in USB bandwidth. (I say this with only my experience. Others may have a different tale to tell.)
Firewire proved to be far more reliable.
If you go this way, and setup your system to stream from a firewire external drive, i highly reccomend getting an external box with a fan. I tried it without, and got sunburn from the glow of the drive as it fought to stay alive! (Made nice toast, though.)

One more question. Is the USB hub external power, or powered directly from the USB bus?
This makes a difference too. (External powered is better.)

Good luck!

Regards,

Alex.

P.s. I started with a Midisport, and dumped it. Too many problems. I don't know if this is possible for you. (Have you considered a modestly priced USB MIDI controller as an alternative? I use two with my tiny setup. One for input (Evo 249), and the other, an Edirol PCR-M1 as a 'control surface.' Works a treat, and makes easy work of Keyswitching, if that's your method of inputting. Both were inexpensive and saved me a lot of time and angst.))

[ColinThomson]

Thank you. I will spend time going through your suggestions. I must plead ignorance with much of the computer related side of music. So usually when I get a reply, I do some searching for all of the terms people use in order to find out what exactly they mean, and then I do them. Sort of a long process, but I am on overload trying to learn so much at once. I looked at a cheaper USB keyboard, but most of the cheap ones do not have 88 keys, and I am first and foremost a pianist, so this is very important.
Thanks for the reply. I will give your suggestions a try

[stevesong]

Colin:

One more question is the MIDI Sport plugged into the USB hub or directly into the MacBook? I found that connecting my MIDI Time Piece directly to a USB port on my G5 greatly improved performance - previously I had tried connecting it through a powered USB hub and got all kinds of MIDI errors. I concur with Alex's recommendations of putting your drive into a firewire enclosure and using a powered USB hub.

[hermitage59]

@ColinThomson said:

Thank you. I will spend time going through your suggestions. I must plead ignorance with much of the computer related side of music. So usually when I get a reply, I do some searching for all of the terms people use in order to find out what exactly they mean, and then I do them. Sort of a long process, but I am on overload trying to learn so much at once. I looked at a cheaper USB keyboard, but most of the cheap ones do not have 88 keys, and I am first and foremost a pianist, so this is very important.
Thanks for the reply. I will give your suggestions a try

Colin, I'm a pianist too, although i've been called much worse than that!

Maybe it's worth thinking of a cheap USB keyboard as a control surface, or 'Midi manipulation Tool', rather than viewing it purely from a performance perspective.

Here's an Apple article related to Logic, that gives some tips on setup and optimisation. I found these useful, and implemented several with a positive result.
There are a lot of friendly people here who are far more knowledgable than i, who will jump in and help, when they sober up....[H]
Steve's suggestion is useful too, concerning plugging your Midi straight into the mac, instead of powered hub.


http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=304970">http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=304970

Another useful site for Logic tips, and optimisation is this one, managed by a very knowledgable chap named David, and ably assisted by several others. (See a member named 'Stevenson' in this forum or 'Rohan Stevenson' in the apple forums for just about everything there is to do with Logic's Score Editor. He's a guru.)

A general search will reveal much to help, but there is a tips and tricks section that will give you useful info, if you're unsure where to start.

http://www.logicprohelp.com/

You can also peruse the EXS section in this forum, as there have been quite a few discussions about Logic, and Mac resources.


My computer knowledge is limited too, but if i can help further, don't hesitate to ask. It was fairly recently that i found out what MIDI means!
Until then i presumed, given my clumsy software knowledge, that it should read:

'My Ignorance Dims Inspiration.' [:O]ops:

Regards, and good luck,

Alex.

[ColinThomson]

Wow. So much stuff to try out. There must be the answer in there somewhere. [:)]

Midisport 2x2 is plugged directly into macbook. The other USB port is holding the hub, which is USB powered. I guess I might switch that to a powered one if nothing else is helping. My Western Digital external hard drive is plugged into the USB hub. I JUST got it, and now people are telling me to go with a firewire. This is my hard drive:

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Western-Digital-External-Hard-Drive-WDG1U5000N/sem/rpsm/oid/149941/catOid/-12973/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

Is it possible to change this one into a firewire interface, or would I need to buy a whole new hard drive?

On the cheap midi controller, are you saying that I would have my kurzweil PC1X plugged into a smaller keyboard via midi, and then into the computer, so that I would play everything on my 88 keyboard, but the smaller one would be instead of my midisport 2x2?

I still *cough* don't *cough* know what MIDI actually stands for.

Thanks

[DG]

Musical Instrument Digital Interface

DG

[ColinThomson]

Thanks

[stevesong]

Colin:

You do not need to replace the whole drive - - only the enclosure. Heavy duty firewire enclosures with fans are available from a few suppliers. One of these is Granite digital - they have both firewire 400 ($90) and firewire 400/800 ($120) capable enclosures.

http://www.granitedigital.com/catalog/pg23_firewireidecasekits.htm

What you'd need to do is extract the drive from its present enclosure and put it in the firewire enclosure. This is usually fairly easy to accomplish. Both USB and firewire work with ATA drives. The difference is in the circuitry (known as the bridgeboard) that goes between the drive and the interface that connects the drive to the computer.

[cm]

what colin is pointing to is a ready-to-go external drive - the same model exists also with USB/FW400/FW800 connectors ... i thinc you cammot change the enclosure without loosing garantee (like with the maxtor onetouch drives) ... maybe you can echange the device since its almost new?
christian

[ColinThomson]

Everyone is talking about the hard drive, but I thought that the hard drive was only in use to load the samples onto the RAM, which it is doing fine. But no one seems concerned about the RAM. Could that be the cause of my problems? (which, by the way, are growing less since I have been tweaking Logic, thanks to all of your advice). But I would have thought that it would be the RAM, so maybe I don't understand the system that is used.
Also, when I have Logic's CPU meter up, and am playing a song, the CPU meter (both the audio one and the disk I/O) stays very low on the register. But whenever there is a pop or click, the audio one jumps up. This dosn't make sense to me. It has plenty of power when it is playing, but then jumps high when it clicks, and then goes back to normal. Any ideas?

[stevesong]

Colin:

With the VI instruments and software only the beginning of the samples is loaded into RAM - - the rest of the sample is streamed from the hard drive. Disk streaming technology was first employed by Gigastudio and is used by EXS24 (if you turn "virtual memory" on under the options menu) and Vienna Instruments. Its advantage is that it allows one to be able to play many more, much longer unlooped samples than would be possible if all samples were loaded into RAM. It is this technology which played a central role in bringing about the shift from hardware to software samplers. However, because it involves streaming samples from disk in real time, it requires high speed disk access. That's the reason everyone is suggesting Firewire drives. Christian's suggestion is a good one - - of trying to exchange your present drive for the Firewire version of the same. However, if that doesn't work, you might try what I suggested - - purchasing another enclosure and putting the drive mechanism in it. It is possible that the warranty for the drive mechanism - - as distinct from the warranty for the drive+enclosure - - will not be voided by this procedure, but you should ask Western Digital about this. It seems possible that the reason the audio meter jumps at the time of the click is that your current sample drive is failing to provide the sample in time.

[ColinThomson]

OK, that clears a lot up. I will try to exchange it and see what happens. Thanks so much for your help, you guys are great.

[JBacal]

I thought the USB 2 spec was nearly as good as Firewire. This is false? Are external USB drives much worse than external Firewire?

Thanks,
Jay

[cm]

jay, this is always the problem with viewing isolated on plain numbers ... of course 480 Mbit/s (USB 2) is theoretically a better value than 400 Mbit/s (firewire 400) but you had also to look at the design, type and protocol for the connection.
although both are serial protocols they behave different - on a USB bus you can have a variety of devices (mice, keyboards, keys, harddisks, video, ipods ... literally hundreds, many of them coming with their own drivers) and protocol versions (USB 1, 2, asynchronous, isynchronous) and in fact you never know what exactly is going on - it just works, but it works *somehow* ...
firewire is a more straightforward protocol (although downward compatible to 100 and 200 Mbit/s you wont find many of such devices) and i don't recommend to have more than 3 devices on a bus to keep data throughput in a useful range. have a closer look at CPU usage when accessing files via firewire and you will notice it's still only the second best choice.

best option ourdays (especially on a macbook pro) would be a PCI express 34 adaptercard for sATA connected to an external sATA disk - low CPU load, fast bus (3 Gbit/s), good protocol, controler sitting very close to the processor ...
christian