License problem rant - need help from the forum

[Peregrine]

Two months ago, I purchased three VI string libraries to use on a customer project. The samples are great, the engine is pretty good to work with, and the customer liked what they were hearing. Everything was going well until 10 days ago, when, with the installation of LCC 5.0.3.3, the whole thing stopped working. The VSL support staff looked at this for several days without having any success. They then decided it must be a Syncrosoft problem, and sent all their documentation to Syncrosoft support for resolution. Another five days have gone by without any answers. I’ve asked VSL to give me new licenses and/or additional software so I could continue work on another machine, but I’ve been told this is not possible; that it is against their policy. VSL finally did ask Ilio to send me another Vienna Key, suggesting I attempt to transfer the existing licenses. This morning, I found out that Ilio is shipping the new key via UPS ground. It won’t be here for three more days. VSL support is on to other issues or on vacation and isn’t returning my messages. In the meantime, Syncrosoft support has disappeared, and won’t tell me their status. If they manage to get this problem fixed, I have no assurance it won’t reoccur. Fortunately, my customer likes the VSL product so well that for the time being they’re willing to put up with the delay. But I have to tell you, I’m really losing my patience with this. If any of you have a suggestion, let me know. I’ve got lots of free time.

If anyone on the forum disagrees, please tell me I’m overreacting. But when I pay $3000 for a software product, I think when I fire it up I have the right to expect it will work as advertised and not stare back, telling me I don’t have the license to use it. I think for this price I have the right to expect VSL to do whatever they need to get me working again, and not simply tell me it’s a Syncrosoft problem. I think VSL needs to supply a challenge/response enhancement so I can work around this issue now and in the future. I think VSL should have coded a back door install program that recognized my existing licenses without needing a key. OK, that may have been a bit much. But I am angry that everyone seems to want to work on the wrong problem here. This isn’t about a software bug. Its about getting a legitimate customer working. It’s a subtle difference, but it should change your whole approach to resolving this problem. That’s my rant.

To VSL - You’ve taken a very good product and given control of it to another company without any backup plan. What could you possibly be thinking?

[JWL]

Peregrine:

Have you tried version 5.0.4.0? I can't find the thread, but the VSL team mentioned that it fixes the dongle recognition problem...

EDIT
Here's the thread-- the info on the new version of LCC is towards the bottom (short thread).
http://community.vsl.co.at/viewtopic.php?t=9071

[Peregrine]

We tried moving to 5.0.4.0 and also dropping back to 5.0.2.4. Whatever problem was introduced by 5.0.3.3 is persistent. BTW, Syncrosoft won't/can't tell me what files I have to delete to get a clean install. I've tried the key in three separate PCs in the studio with the same result. The left side of the interface says there are no licenses installed.

Thanks for the try.

[JWL]

I really feel for you, because I'd spent weeks getting LCC to work at all, however slowly.

I use Mac, and have made liberal use of intaller logs which lists what was installed at a given time, meaning the entire bundle of files. Some files could be invisible and without some clever under the hood code work it might be very difficult to remove them manually (especially when Syncrosoft won't tell you what is included in their bundle).

I'm not certain what these files would be called on the Windows platform, but if you have any sort of installer log it might at least give you a fresh start.

Sad to say-- one option I had to take at one point (and I don't wish this on my worst enemy) was to wipe my main HD-- not my VSL HD's-- and just get a fresh start.

Short of that, there are some clever disc utilities out there which will search for all files visible and invisible associated with a given app so that they can be completely uninstalled. Perhaps Windows has a such a feature built into the OS?

[cm]

peregrine, i'm now somehow surprised you're noticing this effect also on two more computers. from your support emails i was reading about about one athlon 64 X2 (dual core 64 bit) machine running XP mediacenter edition. i'd assume it is the asus A8N-VM with nVidia chipsets.

the interesting thing is that your license control center can see the licenses, but they do not show up in the pane of the Vienna Instrument. this would be usually a hint some files or registry entries are corrupted.

trying to figure out what exactly happened (you mentioned in one of your replies all this happened when upgrading the LCC during doing something else) i came across a similar situation when the upgrade process has been interrupted (not completed) - this could be solved here by simply re-installing the latest LCC 5.0.4.0
problem was that the synsopos process didn't work reliable

in one of paul's numerous replies he asked you for a clean uninstall
1) Remove all Syncrosoft Keys
2) Reboot your machine
3) don´t start the LCC
4) go through the de-installation routine (from control panel / add-remove software)
5) sometimes there´s the message: *some items could not be uninstalled - please remove them manually* or similar - do you see
this message?
6) make sure that the folder "Syncrosoft" in "C:\\program files\\Syncrosoft"
is completely erased - you can do that in your explorer
7) Reboot again and install LCC 5.0.2.4 again (or meanwhile the newly released 5.0.4.0)
have you followed this steps? i can't find any confirmation about it.

additionally there is a logfile what happens during LCC install in c:\\Program Files\\Syncrosoft - you could check in detail if everything got removed during a clean uninstall based on the entries in this file.

additionally it would be helpfull to receive more detailed information, so i'm wondering about the reported phoenix BIOS, because usually asus has AMI or AWARD - is this a computer from a certain OEM?
are the other two computers also from the same type?

maya suggested trying to move licenses from one key to another, because we noticed success using this procedure in another case, although we don't know exactly why.

keep us updated, christian

[Peregrine]

JWL - On a pc we can see the hidden files and there is an install log for the LCC. It actually isn’t too difficult to do a restore on the boot drive. We have backups from just before the problem. The restore process is just time consuming, would take most of a day to complete, and (we think) probably wouldn’t solve the problem. We don’t want to do anything on our own here while waiting for further instructions from VSL or Syncrosoft.

Christian - it’s a NAGAMI board with A8N-LA. This PC was new out of the box about three months ago. I would assume the phoenix bios is simply a product of HP production schedules. We followed Paul’s request three times. We installed 5.0.2.4, then 5.0.4.0. We then did the uninstall a third time, verified against the install log that files had been removed, and did a registry edit to remove the persistent registry entries. We then reinstalled 5.0.4.0. None of this had any effect. We also had initially installed VI on another pc - an Intel P4, that was still at LCC 5.0.2.4. When we reinstalled 5.0.2.4, we put the key in that machine and got the same message. We also tried installing everything from scratch on another AMD K8, and the install process stopped with the “you need these licenses” message.

What this tells me is that there is a Syncrosoft-level decryption routine that is still working, and there is a VSL-level decryption routine that is corrupted, and that this corruption is resident on the key itself. Syncrosoft isn’t going to hand me information about fixing their encryption routines, so I just have to wait until they figure out how to create a fix when they don‘t know what the corruption is. Hope that makes sense. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that transferring licenses to a new key will be an answer. But since the uninstall/reinstall approach didn’t work, there is a probability the corruption will transfer itself to the new key. It won’t get here until quite late Monday and I’ll post results then. If it doesn’t work, I’ll be asking VSL again to change its policy on handing out new software.

Thanks both of you for looking at this.

[tomhartman]

it is the single most buggy copy protection plan I have ever seen since starting on the Mac in 1986. Really, it is that bad. When we have spent this kind of cash, you expect more.

Long live iLOK, which has never once given me a problem on any software that I use.

TH

[garylionelli]

I agree -- I had to restart my Mac yesterday, and it took 16 minutes to reopen my D. Perf file because of the license scans. Really can't work this way, especially under deadlines. Add that to the 15 minutes of initial bootup and you've got a half hour wasted. Please consider signing a contract with iLok, or using some other method. It seems like Syncosoft has had more than enough time to get their act together, and nothing has really changed with VI first-time boot up.

[Jerome]

Peregrine, this might not help you, but did you get the error message with the Library Installer 1.0.3 ? If so, try using a previous version of the Library installer.

Jerome

[Peregrine]

I got the key early this afternoon, transferred one of the licenses, and it didn't fix the problem. As I thought, the corrupted file from Syncrosoft transferred itself to the new key. This is just total garbage.

VSL can't fix this, and won't send new software.

Syncrosoft doesn't know how to fix this, and is probably on vacation somewhere.

I've got $3000 worth of software that doesn't think I own it.

This is just total garbage.

[Jerome]

If possible, you should return the software.

I mean, you spend $3000 and can't use it. What are you supposed to do?

Jerome

[paul lm]

peregrine, i feel for you. i really love the whole vsl team and think they've a great vibe going on (and a stonking product!), but i hope to dear god they're reading all the various forums, because they're losing serious money with the number of people who aren't buying it because of syncrosoft.i've downloaded the latets license key on my dual 2.5 gig mac, but it's still buggy as hell. i repeat, it's not anything to do with disliking copy protection, i just don't want to be constantly praying it's going to work. i don't want to be aware of it. why oh why didn't they go with ilok??

[jbm]

Just a little extra support... I've also had a variety of problems since installing the VIs, and suspect these to be Syncrosoft-related as well; hard freezes, achingly long VI launches which have ended in nothing at all being launched, Vienna Keys which at one moment fail to see any licenses then in the next happily launch my VIs. Way too buggy. I have, thus far, been lucky to have got away with simply re-installing the LCC software and the VI software, which (on my system anyway) seems to get things up and running again.

Terribly impressed by the VIs, but terribly unimpressed with Syncrosoft.

I also use MaxMSP regularly, which is Pace/iLok. I don't have an iLok key, rather using the Challenge/Response system, but based on the general lack of iLok complaints on the cycling74 forum, I'd vote to switch to iLok as well. (I wouldn't, however, be too pleased if asked to pay for new iLok keys... however, if pushed, I'd still pay to switch.) I've had to do one archive and install already, after a hard freeze (and subsequent forced reboot) thoroughly mangled my disk directory. No actual data loss, fortunately.

I should also mention that I completely support VSL's efforts to protect the enormous investment they've put into their products. But when copy-protection has such a clearly negative impact on registered users, I find it difficult to see the benefits... Ultimately, this is costing them money, not saving it.

I hope you get your system up and running, Peregrine; the VIs really are a joy to use. Even if the process of getting them running, and keeping them running, is somewhat Purgatorial!

J.

[Peregrine]

No one can argue the need for copy protection, and once its operational, VI produces great musical results. Thats why this is so completely frustrating. I'm literally begging this company to use their product, and they're telling me there's nothing they can do. So we're all just sitting around waiting for Syncrosoft to create a solution. Since they're focused on the wrong problem, thats going to take a long time.

The problem here is that I have five library licenses that have been corrupted by Syncrosoft. The answer is for VSL to give me replacement licenses. It seems to me that should be easy and it would cost them absolutely nothing. I've already been told they can't do that. They could also send me an additional library so I could get working again while waiting for a fix. That would also cost them absolutely nothing. I've already been told they can't do that. They can't give me a global fix to get around reading the key because that would compromise the security system. They can't give me a specific fix because they don't know the actual nature of the corruption. I think I have a right to be a little indignant.

[cm]

peregrine, i've emailed you some considerations about a blocked port on your machine(s) - we had this issue with an overzealous AV-app once ...
christian

[Peregrine]

That was the answer. Christian I can't thank you enough. Herb, give him a big raise.

For anybody else experiencing this problem, you might try enabling local access on TCP port 6179.

[JWL]

Man. I'm not even a PC user and I was cheering to read that a solution had been found.

TCP port 6197. Who would have thought it?

[cm]

problem is that some AV / firewall applications think they have to block even local communication using the TCP stack ... not the best possible idea.
if not really neccessary for an important reason i'd generally recommend to use AV software sparingly on DAWs. also the time needed opening/installing files can increase dramatically with such software running.
christian

[paul lm]

i have no idea what the heck any of that means, but hoorah! good old TCP port 619 [:D]

[JWL]

@paul lm said:

i have no idea what the heck any of that means, but hoorah! good old TCP port 619 [:D]

Oh, yeah. EVERYONE knows about that port. LOL!!

I mean, it is a very clever solution, but I'm clearly outgeeked on this one.