I don't want to cut off a thread which will become a vivid discussion without doubt, but please let's stick to the "If it sounds right, it is right"-paradigm here. Mr. Alexander most certainly has good reasons for his point of view, as much as we had when we decided for recording all our instruments in one acoustic environment. This is a question of personal taste as well as a question of cultural socialisation, so looking for absolute "truth" is moot.

Apart from that, since the advent of the Apassionata Violins, this whole topic got a very different spin, I'd say. [H]

Kind regards,

Dietz, dont take me wrong.
Of course even if it has still its technical aspects this question is vastly a matter of taste and in so far its "truth" in the certain musical background.
You are right with that, and mere taste is not realy the matter I want to discuss at all.

But as far this question has its technical aspects to, I myself realy was irritated a bit by Peters conclusions and therefor just interested in the Experiences of other Users.

So I see different Aspects inhere this question:

1. Is, what Peter was looking for, the lush Sound the Appassionata Strings now contribute to the VSL-Libraries?
2. Is it a matter of having a just slightly different set of 2. Orchestral Strings to avoid identical parallel Samples, as actualy discussed in another thread (http://www.vsl.co.at/de-at/69/128/33.vsl) - As far as I think there are especialy in the rich Sampleresource of the VSL also often enough possibilitys to avoid identical parallel Samples, by using just slightly different patches, which is not discussed in the mentioned thread.
3. What experiences has other Users with combining VSL with other Libraries?

So, far from mooting any truth, I am quite curious about other Users experiences.
best
Steffen

In short - It's not true. [H]

You may like the sound of other libraries better - as Dietz says - taste. But for making convincing lines I would say VSL's strings are as good (or better) than any other library out there.

Strings are generaly the achilles heal of sampled instruments. They are just so hard to pull off with samples since they are so alive. Even the Appassionate Violins which I really like, still dont nail it completely.

@Christian Marcussen said:

Even the Appassionate Violins which I really like, still dont nail it completely.

I don't support that statement because it will take many months to figure out how to get the most of this new appa lib. No lib will ever be self-musical, a single note does not make music...the same as a real violin, the player is the real deal although a descent instrument is essential, but a strad will not make a mediocre player sound good...

VSL strings are the best single library without a doubt: the best sounding the most flexible and most realistic. That doesnt mean someone wouldn't blend them with other samples for any number of reason (as with any samples .) I just blended VSL string, brass and percussion in with a real orchestra on a film score and they saved the day.

My preference is to use the strings by themselves because they sound full and complete and there's no other library that can keep up with all the expression and articulations of VI. Also if you tried to do this the other library would (in my case) require something like 20 or 30 midi tracks where with VI it takes 1.

@Another User said:

No lib will ever be self-musical, a single note does not make music...

I hear what you are saying. And I agree to a certain extent. But when you listen closely to real strings, their detail and subtle nauances it should clear why samples would have a hard time replicating this. Even top notch samples as VSL's. These details are extremely hard to replicate with samples for obvious reasons. And while this is true for any instrument, strings are the hardest in my view.

This dosent't take away anything from the AV's, or what VSL have have acheived. It's fantastic. But strings remain the holy grail.

No doubt that real strings is still more expressive but that's only because it would take a ton more samples, subtler articulations and real acoustics samples to match real strings and in my opinion that is definitely feasible and VSL is right on that path.

But my main point was that what you cannot come up with now does not mean in 6 month you will not find a way using the exact same tool.

But I also hear you... [:D]

@dpcon said:

[...] I just blended VSL string, brass and percussion in with a real orchestra on a film score and they saved the day. [...]

I've been involved in several productions where this was done, too - although more in a jazz/pop context - with great results.

@Christian Marcussen said:

In short - It's not true. [H]


Strings are generaly the achilles heal of sampled instruments. They are just so hard to pull off with samples since they are so alive. Even the Appassionate Violins which I really like, still dont nail it completely.

This couldn't be a truer statement.

Well anyway....

The other day a colleague sent me a AIF of a Mozart Symphony, I was sure it was a mockup, to my big surprise it was a real orchestra! [*-)]

@Guy said:

Well anyway....

The other day a colleague sent me a AIF of a Mozart Symphony, I was sure it was a mockup, to my big surprise it was a real orchestra! [*-)]

HAH!! Now, there's a switch.

What was it about the recording that made you think it was anything other than a real orchestra?

@Guy said:

Well anyway....

The other day a colleague sent me a AIF of a Mozart Symphony, I was sure it was a mockup, to my big surprise it was a real orchestra! [*-)]

HAH!! Now, there's a switch.

What was it about the recording that made you think it was anything other than a real orchestra?

JWL, believe it or not, and I feel really stupid now [:O]ops:, I thought it was over quantized, I did think the woodwinds sounded amazing, but not the strings, they sounded mecanical.

As I've noted in the past, I made this same mistake with a Toscanini recording. I couldn't believe any string section could play so fast and yet so precisely.

By the way, where is the article in question?

@Guy said:

Well anyway....

The other day a colleague sent me a AIF of a Mozart Symphony, I was sure it was a mockup, to my big surprise it was a real orchestra! [*-)]

HAH!! Now, there's a switch.

What was it about the recording that made you think it was anything other than a real orchestra?

JWL, believe it or not, and I feel really stupid now [:O]ops:, I thought it was over quantized, I did think the woodwinds sounded amazing, but not the strings, they sounded mecanical.

There IS a such thing as poorly recorded classical orchestral CDs.

There is also a such thing as greatly enhanced virtual orchestra libraries that are putting good musical ears through their paces-- ie: VSL and VI *** when used effectively***

Plowman-- I do remember your discussion on the Toscanini example. It's remarkable that we (as keen virtual orchestral musicians) can be stumped this way.

That's the reason why I love the exercise of sequencing a favorite orchestral work to an actual recording. It really forces me to reassess my previous notions of what is humanly possible and what is characteristically unique to computer sequencinng. This doesn't mean that the Mozart or Toscanini recordings are necessarily preferred, artistically speaking. It does give us more to consider when creating virtual tracks-- that not every recording of a real orchestra sounds "real"!!

Here's the article.

http://www.soniccontrol.com/reviews/details.php?ID=99

@dpcon said:

I just blended VSL string, brass and percussion in with a real orchestra on a film score and they saved the day.

I've been involved in several productions where this was done, too - although more in a jazz/pop context - with great results.

I have heard people knock the VSL cellos but I think they are some of the best instruments in the library. In a passage on this score the conductor misunderstood my direction to bring out the violas leaving the primary tune in the cellos in the background. We layered in the VSL cellos from the mockup of the score and they contained all the expression one could ask for while blending in without detection as samples. Same for other critical sections with various Brass, Winds and Percussion. Heck we even layered in the general Strings patch for a couple measures for a sort of pad and bingo: Dm13 in all it's glory.