@michael_maberly said:

Without exception, friends' reactions to VS's VI 'upgrade' policy have been strongly negative, ranging from "unacceptable business practice" to "bordering on fraudulent". This is from people who are actively engaged in IT.
I, too, feel somewhat bruised by VS's recent behaviour, and understand that it hurts more precisely because VS had - until now - been exemplary; the disappointment is deeper.

Well all my friends think that it is a marvellous policy and that anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot!! See how easy it is to hide behind un-named friends?

Firstly, your friends will only know what you've told them, and it is easy to see where you're coming from.
Secondly, I doubt that any of them are experts in European law, so your borderline libellous statement has no authority.

As I see it, there are four elements in the VI package:

1) A new "intelligent" sample player
2) New samples
3) Old samples
4) Re-programming of old samples

I would imagine that your reaction comes from not wanting to pay for point 3. However, nobody has said that you are paying for these samples. How do you know that they are not free, much in the manner of the free content that comes with GS or K2? You don't, so therefore your percieved argument is fundamentally flawed. What is clear is that VSL is giving a huge discount for the Extended material, far more than any "old" content would warrant, and you also have a period of 30 days to try it out. If you don't like it, or think that you don't need it, then you don't have to pay for it. I can't think of any other sample company that allows this.

If you really have a problem with all this I suggest that you write to VSL and complain, rather than whinging on a public forum, so that we can all get on with discussing this exciting new product, rather than having our enthusiasm destroyed by a few naysayers.

DG

@DG said:

What is clear is that VSL is giving a huge discount for the Extended material, far more than any "old" content would warrant, and you also have a period of 30 days to try it out.
DG

I think a lot of the correspondence (and you have to admit there has been a lot of it!) can be laid at the door of the fact that VSL are not accounting for customers previous expenditure the way they have in the past.

The fact there is a new interface and it is 24bit shold not come into it, whatever this costs should be reflected in the purchase price for ALL customers not in a reduction of the discount for existing users. For example if the new cost of a symphonic cube was 10,600 euros and registered users of the pro-edition for example received a discount of 5490 euros (their original purchase price) There could be no complaints about the VIP price.

The Symphonic Cube extended contains all the samples of the pro-edition so one would expect (if VSL had maintained the spirit of "you never pay twice for the same sample") a full credit of the original purchase price against the cost of the Cube. Now if that means the price a VIP pays is not enough to cover the development of the new instruments then the total purchase price should be more not the discount less.

As the cost of the initial sample recordings, including the contracts with the musicians themselves, will have been funded fully, or to a great extent, by the purchasers of existing products, unless this is taken into account there is a strong argument that says current users are subsidising new purchasers of Vienna Instruments - to the extent that it would not be possible to retail the Symphonic Cube for €9200 unless this was the case!

Julian

Julian, I understand what you're saying, but the cost of SC (according to my discount) is not very far removed from this. Plus, I've had the use of the "old" content for the last year and a half.

DG

@DG said:

Julian, I understand what you're saying, but the cost of SC (according to my discount) is not very far removed from this. Plus, I've had the use of the "old" content for the last year and a half.

DG

Hey DG,

My discount Full Pro Edition up to Symphonic Cube is only 68% of the purchase price (€3790 discount, purchase price €5490) though a new purchaser of the pro-edition today will get 107% of their purchase price against a new cube - due to the holiday discount.

It's figures like these that i feel have been a leading cause of discontent.

Julian

@DG said:

Julian, I understand what you're saying, but the cost of SC (according to my discount) is not very far removed from this. Plus, I've had the use of the "old" content for the last year and a half.

DG

Hey DG,

My discount Full Pro Edition up to Symphonic Cube is only 68% of the purchase price (€3790 discount, purchase price €5490) though a new purchaser of the pro-edition today will get 107% of their purchase price against a new cube - due to the holiday discount.

It's figures like these that i feel have been a leading cause of discontent.

Julian

Are you including Extended content in your percentages? I can't understand Euros (+ I don't know where the key is on my computer!).

How much value do you put on the time that you've already used the samples for?

I'm afraid that I don't see software licences as an investment of any sort. To me, an investment is something that I expect to increase in value in order to make a profit, and no, I don't have any! There are many business examples of software that requires a monthly fee in order to work at all, so I think that all music software companies are giving us a good deal on this one.

I also think that people forget all the free upgrades (I'm thinking of the GS art files and K2 scripts) and extra instruments that we have been given in the past. I think that maybe Herb should think of charging a fee for these in future [:(]

Anyway, I'm convinced that those people who choose to buy SC will find that it totally changes their working methods for the better and those who don't can work in the same way as they always have, so they've lost nothing.

DG

Are you including Extended content in your percentages? I can't understand Euros (+ I don't know where the key is on my computer!).

How much value do you put on the time that you've already used the samples for?

I'm afraid that I don't see software licences as an investment of any sort. To me, an investment is something that I expect to increase in value in order to make a profit, and no, I don't have any! There are many business examples of software that requires a monthly fee in order to work at all, so I think that all music software companies are giving us a good deal on this one.

I also think that people forget all the free upgrades (I'm thinking of the GS art files and K2 scripts) and extra instruments that we have been given in the past. I think that maybe Herb should think of charging a fee for these in future [:(]

Anyway, I'm convinced that those people who choose to buy SC will find that it totally changes their working methods for the better and those who don't can work in the same way as they always have, so they've lost nothing.

DG[/quote]

My upgrade allows 68% of my initial purchase price against whether dollar, euro or pounds against the cube.

Pro Edition cost €5490 discount allowed €3790
£3660 discount allowed €2529
$ 5990 discount allowed €4560

I do agree I have had previous use of the library but upon upgrade the complete pro edition becomes from my point of view totally redundant - it can't be sold or lent and all it's functions have been replaced by the Cube. Therfore all its value has to be realised in the upgrade discount. Now, it is here there has been the sea change from a 100% upgrade valuation as previously given by VSL for the upgrade path to a 68% valuation now offered.

VSL is a great company, customer service I have encountered has been industry leading, their product is the best. The only millstone round their neck is previous corporate statements "you never pay twice for the same samples" I would guess that to a large number of users (not everyone!) VSL's interpretation of this in the VI upgrade is not in line with their own understanding of the promise.

Julian

@DG said:

Well all my friends think that it is a marvellous policy and that anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot!! See how easy it is to hide behind un-named friends? . . .

Firstly, your friends will only know what you've told them, and it is easy to see where you're coming from.
Secondly, I doubt that any of them are experts in European law, so your borderline libellous statement has no authority. . . .

If you really have a problem with all this I suggest that you write to VSL and complain, rather than whinging on a public forum
DG

DG, I wish you'd consider toning down the rhetoric.

First of all, I gave my own opinion on this issue both within that post, and - previously - in others. Second, you are both presumptious and in error to assume that I had not contacted VS directly.

You're also out of line in implying that I had been less than honest in communicating the issue with my friends.

Fourth, very few of the posts in this thread have had anything to do with legal matters or procedures: they have been almost exclusively concerned with customer support and loyalty. (Were one to address the issue of legality here, I wouldn't be surprised if EU commercial law were superceded by international trade agreements and conventions, since VS is selling its products globally.)

DG, you don't own this discussion. While I'm sorry that reading some of the posts diminishes your enthusiasm for VI, I would suggest that you take a hint from yourself: to paraphrase how you close many of your own posts, "if reading this thread turns you off, don't read it."

hey, interesting developement it's been about 50/50 all the time. [:)]

tele

I find it pretty hilarious that some people here can waste so much energy to arrogantly protest about the protesters...

I really like it when they say "get over it"...
As if they themselves couldn't get over the simple fact that some people here still wanna voice their thoughts...

In my view a pretty pathetic reason to make so much noise.. but fun though.. !!! Keep it coming !!

Actually I've always thought the same about little mister nobodies badly wanting to show they exist at any possible little occasion...
But this is what's so great about the internet.. Every one can join into the fest and say nothing interesting at all !!

More please !!!


[8-)]

At least you've time to read them, and "contribute" too
[8-)]

How could I not agree with you Laurent! I'm no better..
I spend way to much time reading & adding to the general mumbo jumbo...

And enjoying it... (At least)
En guerre contre les 'peines à jouir'..

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BTW : While I'm here. I really think VSL should give us a VIP price on the standard edition. Obviously I'm not the only one.
They probably won't and I've already said I find this pretty unclassy.
Some will use the word 'unfair'.
Everyone understands what they mean but someone will obviously feel an incredible urge to start nit-picking on the words.. and moralize about how better than others they really understand things about life and business...
Thanks for enlightening us all !!!


Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-Chatter-

50/50 ?!?

How many companies could thrive if they alienated half of their existing customers?

I am sort of shocked that the number is this high in the poll.
Most offended VSL owners seemed to have given up and are posting here less and less.

If giga 4.0 and kontakt add speed control etc .......

I spent my morning scoring a piece with my pro edition. I love VSL.
But my anger over the abandonment of their stated promises has not subsided.
The funds I had set aside for the cube are instead going to other libs.

Fool me once ....
Not twice.

WHEN they release Opus VI .... I might buy that. But I will not invest another $6000 with a company that does not honor its long standing promises.

Ed, I think the same .I don't post cause I think they don't care.I simply won't upgrade from my Pro Edition to VI that's all; if a lot of existing users refused to upgrade they would reconsider their offer because it's a business and they need money.So we'll see......

@watercolours said:

if a lot of existing users refused to upgrade they would reconsider their offer because it's a business and they need money.So we'll see......

Well - that's a hell of a way to run a f**king railroad isn't it?

[8o|]

Well - that's a hell of a way to run a f**king railroad isn't it?

No, I don't think so;the fact is that to my opinion and other users, the upgrade path is not the way it could be expected from what was said in the VIP program etc.......so now the only way to make some pressure would be not upgrade, I don't see any other choice.
To be clear I love the VSL ProEdition and the new VI looks more than good, and I don't doubt that the guys at VSL are really involved in what they are doing and love their job.Saying it's a business is not intended as an offense but......if money was not a concern, we wouldn't even talk about that.They need money to keep going and we, users , need to work hard to buy these expensive products, and so again, I really think users of ProEdition deserve a better upgrade price.

Correct me if I'm wrong... but isn't the VI a new product, where the samples have been given new 'backbones' or whatever to make them function in the new interface?

However confusing it all may be (to me too), I'm under the impression that the Cube isn't merely a new color of the wrapper around it with the exact same content plus a little extra; but that all the samples which were recorded, had to be 're-adjusted' for the new 'player'... so that it is a new product after all.

Wes, I agree with you in many respects.
But ultimately its the same samples wrapped in new software which I would have been more than happy to pay a reasonable crossgrade fee to get.

But $5640 (my vip price) is not reasonable imho.

I think an interesting poll/question would be :

How many of us would have spent the money they spent on VSL products in the past had they known in advance about the current turn of events regarding the VSL VIP policy?

You don't have to dig very deep to figure out the answer...

Before, VSL were getting our money the nice way:
Now they decided they wanna try to get our money the ugly way.. And it seems they're going to stick to the ugliness..

Okay..

Clearly this doesn't wanna make me buy the stuff.
I would even say it makes me want to NOT BUY the stuff.
And the funny thing is that generally I'm a pretty tolerant chap. Easy going.

The fact that this new policy is making ME want to NOT BUY, tells me alot of people probably feel the same..

It isn't even a question of 'having the money' to buy the stuff.
It's just I feel it's an ugly way to try and get my money, so for the moment I really don't want to give it away..

from my perspective, yes the VI is a new product that wraps existing content plus quite a bit more. the problem is there aren't other options and vsl is attempting to force those who anticipated good faith access to upgrades into a completely different product if they want them. it isn't even so much a monetary issue as presenting the studio owner with the proposition of doing it the new VSL way or taking a hike.

the problem is this new thing, however legitimately innovative and attractive to some, isn’t even feasible to consider for others who face the proposition of rebuilding their studios around untried technology that limits access to the samples and penalizes its users with invasive copy protection from a company that now has an easily-discerned history of saying one thing and doing another (albeit conscionably imo). It makes their promises highly conditional and inconvenient to keep for too many, all at once, without warning, and departing from many tenants they have built their business upon. Ironically, I still like vsl and hope they will try to accommodate the users they appear to be in the process of disenfranchising. I’m not even angry, but unimpassioned analysis makes it clear that if a future point arrives where history shows they were unwilling to fix the present problems for all the users they have made promises to, the result will be an unconscionable legacy of deceptive trade practice.

So now that I’ve stepped into somewhat legal analysis, let me say that before “retiring” to devote my energy to music, I was a general partner of a law firm. So I speak with a degree of experience in saying THE basic tenant of international contract law is something called the Doctrine of Reliance. Generally that means that contracts are formed by one party relying on the fulfillment of promises by the other. The interesting thing is that there doesn’t have to be any underlying intent for a breech or even fraud to occur. Translating that to VSL, it means they are legally obligated to fulfill their - specific - promises where it can be shown that others relied on them, i.e., gave them money. So for me the question of whether VSL is being fair or unfair remains to be seen. And while there is no law that says I have to use their new technology, there is certainly a vast body of law that says they have to keep their commitments however inconvenient or costly and regardless of intent.