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  2. Sample Libraries
  3. Synchron Series
  4. Key Switching and Articulation Strategies with Duality Strings (and other Synchron player libriaries)
  • mducharmeM
    mducharmeM
    last edited
    last edited

    @Beat Kaufmann @RaPaSa

    Yes articulation changes will usually have to be visible objects in some way, but those can be hidden so that they have no visual impact on the score but instead only change the sound. I use this for things like "portato" where I want the articulation to be used, but not something printed. So you have full access to all articulations in Dorico, practically speaking, similar to a DAW.

    Controller curves can be drawn, so you have full control over that.

    Dorico's mixer is limited in that it has no group tracks, which is a serious limitation. However what I do is use Vienna Ensemble Pro with everything in a single instance to host all instruments. Vienna Ensemble Pro has a full fledged mixer with group tracks and everything, and the ability to add insert effects and sends. This has the advantage of working in a DAW as well - if you plug all your instruments into VE Pro in Dorico, and you export MIDI to a DAW and plug in the same VE Pro project, it should sound completely identical. In order to have things sound identical when transferring to DAW, you would need to make sure that you are doing all your mixing in VE Pro and just sending Dorico back a single stereo feed of the resulting downmix of the entire piece, which then just goes to the audio output.

    If you use VE Pro, the only remaining limitation in Dorico honestly is the lack of VSTi parameter automation, as well as not being able to have audio tracks. It is possible in VE Pro to map faders to MIDI CC's on certain tracks and do things like that, and you could use that to drive the faders up and down with MIDI to fine tune the mix throughout, but this is a little less convenient than if it had full VSTi automation ability.

    For me, I am finding it easiest to do 99% of the work in Dorico, get it sounding absolutely perfect with all effects and fully mixed, and then bring it to the DAW sometimes if additional things are needed that are too difficult to accomplish with MIDI.
  • R
    R

    @Beat Kaufmann @mducharme

    Thanks a lot for your response.

    @Beat-Kaufmann said:
    For example, I can assign different velocity values to the notes in the "playback window" (in the piano roll editor). I can also change the note length and also the tempo matters. But I can't draw controller curves with Elements (at least I haven't found it yet). The thing with the articulation selection is probably only possible via the characters of the notation...

    I am using Dorico 5 Pro. You can draw controller curves for CC0-CC127 in the key editor which is pretty cool. At the very bottom it says "+ Editor hinzufügen" and from there you can choose between the CCs. With the pencil icon you can draw the lines. In this screenshot example, I added a CC8 line for my Duality Strings 1st Violins which will change the "Timbre Adjust" once it has been activated in the Synchron Player.

    In my last score I used the following setup.

    1. Write score in Dorico 5 Pro
    2. Playback with Noteperformer's Playback Engine for Synchron (bypass reverb, no hall noise, use instruments' original panning from recording)
    3. I used some CCs manipulation for tempo changes (different length of "Zäsuren") and softer releases of long notes with following rests
    4. I exported the whole score as one audio file and imported the wave file into Logic Pro. Here I only used the AI mastering feature which was introduced some months ago with the Logic Pro 10.8 update - for mainly increase the volume of some quieter passages

    This setup gave me these advantages:

    • Playback "out-of-the-box" with Noteperformer's Playback Engine for Synchron already very nice without any tweaking in Dorico´s key editor. So for quick checks/listening, I like this approach very much... the more automation, the better for me... 😊
    • I like to use VSL libraries for this kind of classical music (e.g. Rossini). So I used SY Strings Pro (because of Sul Ponticello), SY Brass, SY Woodwind and SY Percussion.

    With this setup, I faced the following constraints:

    • I had to use SY Strings Pro over SY Duality Strings as Rossini used in many of his Crescendos "Sul Ponticello". As Noteperformer´s Playback Engine only supports the Duality Strings Regular (and no colors or con sordino) at the moment, I would not have been able to use Sul Ponticello. I hope that Noteperformer 4.5 will introduce colors and con sordino so that I would be able to use Duality Strings for that.
    • The playback from NPPE Synchron was in my opinion way better than the sound from VSL expression maps based on the dynamics and phrasing (all "out-of-the-box"). At least I was not able to get a similar sound with justifiable effort.
    • Downside with NPPE is that I do not have the flexibility with presets, I can not use a second instrument of the same library (e.g. flute 2 in addition to flute 1, oboe 2 in addition to oboe 1, trumpet 2 in addition to trumpet 1 and so on) and could not benefit from Dorico's live stage to spread the players on the stage

    So that's why I am looking now for any improvements in my workflow/doing that will give me a good sound with the necessary articulations, options to mix... and everything with justifiable effort. Probably my next score will in addition to woodwinds, brass, percussion and strings also require some choir and solo voice parts. So that will be another, probably even bigger challenge for me.

    @mducharme said:
    If you use VE Pro, the only remaining limitation in Dorico honestly is the lack of VSTi parameter automation, as well as not being able to have audio tracks.

    You can't have audio tracks within Dorico, but at least you could remove parts of the score to export audio/wav for a single instrument or a section of instruments which you could further manipulate in a DAW.

    @mducharme said:
    For me, I am finding it easiest to do 99% of the work in Dorico, get it sounding absolutely perfect with all effects and fully mixed, and then bring it to the DAW sometimes if additional things are needed that are too difficult to accomplish with MIDI.

    Due to the fact, that the latest Dorico version has already so much DAW-like functionality, I like your approach with doing most of the work within Dorico. Looking into the future, it might be at some point in time that Dorico and Cubase will get closer together, so having all required adjustments in one place (Dorico) might keep things a little bit easier.
  • mducharmeM
    mducharmeM
    last edited
    last edited
    @RaPaSa said:
    The playback from NPPE Synchron was in my opinion way better than the sound from VSL expression maps based on the dynamics and phrasing (all "out-of-the-box"). At least I was not able to get a similar sound with justifiable effort.

    This is what I find is not true, personally. I get almost as good of a sound with the VSL expression maps, and better if I put a small amount of work into it. NotePerformer is great, but it is a black box that makes decisions for you.

    Here is an example of the default output I am getting with the VSL expression maps (NotePerformer not involved): Ilia's Theme

    Arne has also basically said NotePerformer will never support Duality Sordino and Colors.
  • skramS
    skramS

    @mducharme thanks for the advise re sordino strings! I went along and just bought both of the Dualitys;) Now, finding that alot of the articulations are missing in the installed expression map from VSL, is this a known issue?

    Are people adding to the map in ways of custom additions, or are there other sources one might draw benefit from?

    Best

    Henrik

    Oslo
  • skramS
    skramS

    ... I should add that my post is regarding the use of Duality Strings (regular and sordino) with VePro and Dorico 5, and as such not well suited for this thread, apologies!

    h

    @skram said:

    @mducharme thanks for the advise re sordino strings! I went along and just bought both of the Dualitys;) Now, finding that alot of the articulations are missing in the installed expression map from VSL, is this a known issue?


    Are people adding to the map in ways of custom additions, or are there other sources one might draw benefit from?



    Best



    Henrik


    Oslo
  • mducharmeM
    mducharmeM
    @skram said:
    Now, finding that alot of the articulations are missing in the installed expression map from VSL, is this a known issue?

    Which ones are you finding are missing? Some techniques don't really necessarily work in Dorico like the runs, in that you write one note and you hear a whole series. There are ways around this but usually VSL doesn't program the articulations where the notation won't automatically match what it sounds like - so this includes sudden dynamic contrasts like fortepiano and such.

    I occasionally extend the VSL maps myself yes, and I give my extensions of them a slightly different name (put my initials in front) to avoid getting it confused or accidentally overwritten by an upgrade.

    Symphonic Riot is also developing expression maps for the Synchron series right now for Dorico. Because theirs are going to be for-cost, I assume they are likely to be more comprehensive in terms of articulation choices. I will be quite interested in what they come up with.
  • skramS
    skramS

    Well, actually I think I can make most of them, like trills other than M and m 2nds etc. Wold also like to trigger portamentos.

    But how will I make them work across the regular/con sord switching? Are they trigger via "Midi trigger regions" ?

    Excited about Symphonic Riot, used them in the past with VI. Found them perhaps overly complex, but looking forwards to see them! His manual was a proper Phd-thesis;)

  • mducharmeM
    mducharmeM
    @skram said:
    But how will I make them work across the regular/con sord switching? Are they trigger via "Midi trigger regions" ?

    You'll have to study the existing map to see how it is done. The con sord vs regular switching is done via expression map entries, not MIDI trigger regions. A lot of the things happen magically because the combined patch has the same techniques in the same slots.
  • M
    M

    They use add-ons in the Dorico EMs to switch between CS and non-CS. So if you add a new articulation key-switch chain in your EM and this articulation exists in both the CS and non-CS library at the same "position" in the key switch tree, it should work without issues independent of CS settings,
  • Mark SchmiederM
    Mark SchmiederM

    I may be wrong about this, but I feel that the controllers do not kick in as quickly as the key switches, at least in some contexts. And though I have bitten by this the most in the organ player, I am pretty sure that the engine is the same across all players and that the main difference is the GUI and the workflow. But I could be wrong on that as well. At any rate, I also feel that controllers are harder to control with precision, but of course there are input devices that are probably more ergonomic for multi-controller input workflows.