Key Switching and Articulation Strategies with Duality Strings (and other Synchron player libriaries)

[Nessein]

Hi fellow VSL family members, 

I have recently been exploring the new Synchron player and Duality Strings - I really like to concept and sound.

I would really love and appreciate any thoughts and guidance from more experienced users on how to tackle the Key Switching and Articulation requirements. Also any additional thoughts on the whole work process from start to finish. 

Firstly, I am not so much of a VSL "performer" if that makes sense - I will usually sketch the cue on piano or "rough in" some instrument parts and then go over each part, adjusting and ensuring that the part in itself is both musical both compositionally and articulatory (is that a word?) and then I do this for all other parts until everything is working together. Then onto the mix side of things.

One item I do like with Synchron is that it prompts you to consider and question intuitavley concerning all aspects of the note in question - i.e. "is this a long note? Short note? What expression? What release and attack?" etc. I do feel that I will be able to "exploit" the articulations better than I could with VI as the Synchron player prompts you as to what can be adjusted and when. Admittedly, with VI I often felt overwhelmed with so much flexibility and choice. 

The challenge is therefore Key swtiches and with strings, they can add up - I am happy to use these if need be, however I am wondering if others have found a - simple and straightforward - and (ideally) elegant way to make this less time consuming? I use cubase 12 if this helps?

I have a very big film project coming up, so any tips that can speed up the programming / articulation process would be very welcome. 

Thanks again for any input you can provide.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Lee

[strytten]

I go back and forth between using keyswitches and assigning MIDI controllers and entering controller values in my DAW. Here are the trade-offs from my perspective:

With controllers, no matter where I am in the piece, when I hit play I hear the right articulations - not so with keyswitches

With controllers, I can view my work in the MIDI notation window or export to a notation program without extra clutter

Controllers require much more information in my MIDI edit window and I end up juggling the size of different windows etc. on my monitors depending on how many MIDI tracks I'm working on at the time

With keyswitches, it may not be quicker to enter, but I can see precisely what I need to see to enter accurately. But then they add clutter to the piano-roll display and require me to juggle the size of that.

With controllers, I need to be meticulous in being consistent in my choice of controller assignments, saving presets, etc.

 

Hope that helps!

[Nessein]

Hi Stytten,

Thank you for the feedback - everything you mention makes sense and I can relate to your experiences.

What about the Expression Maps VSL have created for Cubase? I have never tried them, my concern is the number of articulation combinations would make a complete map extremley long.

[andi]

Hi Lee!

With our Cubase Expression Maps we always try to implement all (or almost all) articulations from the Synchron Player presets and keep the number of articulations to choose from in Cubase as low as possible. For the Synchron Duality Strings we have left out the Runs, because an inclusion would have brought the maps out of proportion and impractical to work with. All other articulations are included.

Best,
Andi

[muziksculp]

The Sound Variations feature of Studio One Pro, works beautifully with VSL Synchron Player, all done automatically in both directions, you just assign the articulation you need to the notes. That's a great feature if your DAW is Presonus : Studio One Pro.

[Beat Kaufmann]

Nessein said:

Hi fellow VSL family members,

....Thanks again for any input you can provide.

Kind Regards,

Lee

Hello Nessein
It is true that the selection of certain articulations is quite time-consuming, especially if you have to press 3, 4 or more keyswitches (notes).
One possibility is to make a so-called "custom compilation" of the articulations used. These can then be controlled with just one note (keyswitch). I have made a kind of Everyday compilation for each instrument. This allows me to swap instruments at will, because staccato is always C1, for example. If an articulation is missing, you can copy it to the custom library in the piece in question or, as an exception, get a more complicated one from the original VSL range. So that you know what I mean - here is a video.

Apropos video...
I have long since announced a video that shows the entire process of creating music with samples. ... So from "Midi - to Samples - to the final Audio-File". Duality strings take centre stage, because practically all pieces with samples contain strings in some way.
The video is finished, but still needs to be polished over this weekend (5./6. Nov. 23). After that, it will certainly be available on my video channel, but perhaps also on VSL's Video-Channel - but that's for Herb and his crew to decide, of course.
It contains many useful tips, especially if you are just starting to work with samples or if you already have some experience. In any case, all the demos were created using the method shown in the video. Maybe you can use one or two of those tips & tricks 😉.
You'll just have to be patient for this weekend... 😉

Here you can find more detailed information about the announced video...

All the best
Beat

[Nessein]

Thanks all for the encouraging feedback!

Beat: I very much look forward to seeing your video when it is ready. I had a listen to a few of your audio demos; great work - thank you for the inspiration!

I thought I had an epiphany yesterday concerning the concept of a button that would record all key switches via step record in cubase at any given moment - So great was my "invention" that I wrote a big e-mail to VSL and posted it on this forum...

... Turns out it's called a "midi dump" and VSL has already implemented this - ha! ha! (seriously) I really laughed at myself.

So for the moment, I am enjoying the freedom of being able to drop in an articulation - as and when needed - with one button, in addition to exploring all of the articulations that are prompted intuitively as part of the syncron presets.

I hope the above assists other lesser-technical musicians get the best out of VSL!

Kind Regards,

Lee

[RaPaSa]

@Beat-Kaufmann said:

Nessein said:

Hi fellow VSL family members,

....Thanks again for any input you can provide.

Kind Regards,

Lee

Hello Nessein
It is true that the selection of certain articulations is quite time-consuming, especially if you have to press 3, 4 or more keyswitches (notes).
One possibility is to make a so-called "custom compilation" of the articulations used. These can then be controlled with just one note (keyswitch). I have made a kind of Everyday compilation for each instrument. This allows me to swap instruments at will, because staccato is always C1, for example. If an articulation is missing, you can copy it to the custom library in the piece in question or, as an exception, get a more complicated one from the original VSL range. So that you know what I mean - here is a video.

Apropos video...
I have long since announced a video that shows the entire process of creating music with samples. ... So from "Midi - to Samples - to the final Audio-File". Duality strings take centre stage, because practically all pieces with samples contain strings in some way.
The video is finished, but still needs to be polished over this weekend (5./6. Nov. 23). After that, it will certainly be available on my video channel, but perhaps also on VSL's Video-Channel - but that's for Herb and his crew to decide, of course.
It contains many useful tips, especially if you are just starting to work with samples or if you already have some experience. In any case, all the demos were created using the method shown in the video. Maybe you can use one or two of those tips & tricks 😉.
You'll just have to be patient for this weekend... 😉

Here you can find more detailed information about the announced video...

All the best
Beat

Hello Beat,

this is a great video and tutorial on how to deal with Duality Strings (and other libraries) in a DAW.

I am working with Dorico where I create my orchestral score and now I am thinking about fine-tuning in Logic Pro. As you mentioned Dorico in your tutorial, do you have any suggestions which steps of your three parts (preparation of midi file, Midi things, Audio things) could be made with Dorico?

I thought about using the key editor in Dorico for tempo changes, velocity and dynamics, so that I finally might start fine-tuning in Logic only with Articulation Sets/Key switches. Or would you recommend to do these things in the DAW, too?

Thanks and kind regards,

Ralf Patrick

[Beat Kaufmann]

@RaPaSa said:

@Beat-Kaufmann said:

Nessein said:

Hi fellow VSL family members,

....Thanks again for any input you can provide.

Kind Regards,

Lee

Hello Nessein
It is true that the selection of certain articulations is quite time-consuming, especially if you have to press 3, 4 or more keyswitches (notes).
One possibility is to make a so-called "custom compilation" of the articulations used. These can then be controlled with just one note (keyswitch). I have made a kind of Everyday compilation for each instrument. This allows me to swap instruments at will, because staccato is always C1, for example. If an articulation is missing, you can copy it to the custom library in the piece in question or, as an exception, get a more complicated one from the original VSL range. So that you know what I mean - here is a video.

Apropos video...
I have long since announced a video that shows the entire process of creating music with samples. ... So from "Midi - to Samples - to the final Audio-File". Duality strings take centre stage, because practically all pieces with samples contain strings in some way.
The video is finished, but still needs to be polished over this weekend (5./6. Nov. 23). After that, it will certainly be available on my video channel, but perhaps also on VSL's Video-Channel - but that's for Herb and his crew to decide, of course.
It contains many useful tips, especially if you are just starting to work with samples or if you already have some experience. In any case, all the demos were created using the method shown in the video. Maybe you can use one or two of those tips & tricks 😉.
You'll just have to be patient for this weekend... 😉

Here you can find more detailed information about the announced video...

All the best
Beat

Hello Beat,

this is a great video and tutorial on how to deal with Duality Strings (and other libraries) in a DAW.

I am working with Dorico where I create my orchestral score and now I am thinking about fine-tuning in Logic Pro. As you mentioned Dorico in your tutorial, do you have any suggestions which steps of your three parts (preparation of midi file, Midi things, Audio things) could be made with Dorico?

I thought about using the key editor in Dorico for tempo changes, velocity and dynamics, so that I finally might start fine-tuning in Logic only with Articulation Sets/Key switches. Or would you recommend to do these things in the DAW, too?

Thanks and kind regards,

Ralf Patrick

Hello Ralf Patrick

With Dorico there is a certain separation between the note image and what Dorico should output/play on the midi page. This is pleasant in the sense that you don't have to fill the note image with 1000 characters just to get a somewhat musical result when playing. Unfortunately, I "only" have Dorico Elements. So I can't tell you exactly what the full version can do.

For example, I can assign different velocity values to the notes in the "playback window" (in the piano roll editor). I can also change the note length and also the tempo matters. But I can't draw controller curves with Elements (at least I haven't found it yet). The thing with the articulation selection is probably only possible via the characters of the notation...

On the audio side, you can use effects, but of course a "real deep audio mix" is not possible because you simply apply effects to the audio output of the individual instruments.
A real audio mix with various automations, from volume to effects and working with group channels to combine entire sections, I don't see that in my Dorico version. I also do not see a convenient and simultaneous export of all instruments as audio files - as it is possible in Cubase or Nuendo, for example. But it has to be said that Dorico's task is different, isn't it? Compared to the first notation programmes I used around 1985, the possibilities in Dorico (Elememts) are phenomenal.

So yes, you can do a lot in Dorico, then export the midi file and then do the fine-tuning in Logic, as you say.
Whether you shouldn't export the midi file soon after composing the score and make all the necessary adjustments in the DAW, probably depends on how well you know the possibilities of Dorico and which version you have.

Everyone has to find their own personal way. For some composers, it is not so important to have the most musical result possible. They would rather compose the next piece than invest more time in the quality of the music.

Beat

[mducharme]

@Beat Kaufmann @RaPaSa

Yes articulation changes will usually have to be visible objects in some way, but those can be hidden so that they have no visual impact on the score but instead only change the sound. I use this for things like "portato" where I want the articulation to be used, but not something printed. So you have full access to all articulations in Dorico, practically speaking, similar to a DAW.

Controller curves can be drawn, so you have full control over that.

Dorico's mixer is limited in that it has no group tracks, which is a serious limitation. However what I do is use Vienna Ensemble Pro with everything in a single instance to host all instruments. Vienna Ensemble Pro has a full fledged mixer with group tracks and everything, and the ability to add insert effects and sends. This has the advantage of working in a DAW as well - if you plug all your instruments into VE Pro in Dorico, and you export MIDI to a DAW and plug in the same VE Pro project, it should sound completely identical. In order to have things sound identical when transferring to DAW, you would need to make sure that you are doing all your mixing in VE Pro and just sending Dorico back a single stereo feed of the resulting downmix of the entire piece, which then just goes to the audio output.

If you use VE Pro, the only remaining limitation in Dorico honestly is the lack of VSTi parameter automation, as well as not being able to have audio tracks. It is possible in VE Pro to map faders to MIDI CC's on certain tracks and do things like that, and you could use that to drive the faders up and down with MIDI to fine tune the mix throughout, but this is a little less convenient than if it had full VSTi automation ability.

For me, I am finding it easiest to do 99% of the work in Dorico, get it sounding absolutely perfect with all effects and fully mixed, and then bring it to the DAW sometimes if additional things are needed that are too difficult to accomplish with MIDI.

[RaPaSa]

@Beat Kaufmann @mducharme

Thanks a lot for your response.

@Beat-Kaufmann said:
For example, I can assign different velocity values to the notes in the "playback window" (in the piano roll editor). I can also change the note length and also the tempo matters. But I can't draw controller curves with Elements (at least I haven't found it yet). The thing with the articulation selection is probably only possible via the characters of the notation...

I am using Dorico 5 Pro. You can draw controller curves for CC0-CC127 in the key editor which is pretty cool. At the very bottom it says "+ Editor hinzufügen" and from there you can choose between the CCs. With the pencil icon you can draw the lines. In this screenshot example, I added a CC8 line for my Duality Strings 1st Violins which will change the "Timbre Adjust" once it has been activated in the Synchron Player.

In my last score I used the following setup.

1. Write score in Dorico 5 Pro
2. Playback with Noteperformer's Playback Engine for Synchron (bypass reverb, no hall noise, use instruments' original panning from recording)
3. I used some CCs manipulation for tempo changes (different length of "Zäsuren") and softer releases of long notes with following rests
4. I exported the whole score as one audio file and imported the wave file into Logic Pro. Here I only used the AI mastering feature which was introduced some months ago with the Logic Pro 10.8 update - for mainly increase the volume of some quieter passages

This setup gave me these advantages:

• Playback "out-of-the-box" with Noteperformer's Playback Engine for Synchron already very nice without any tweaking in Dorico´s key editor. So for quick checks/listening, I like this approach very much... the more automation, the better for me... 😊
• I like to use VSL libraries for this kind of classical music (e.g. Rossini). So I used SY Strings Pro (because of Sul Ponticello), SY Brass, SY Woodwind and SY Percussion.

With this setup, I faced the following constraints:

• I had to use SY Strings Pro over SY Duality Strings as Rossini used in many of his Crescendos "Sul Ponticello". As Noteperformer´s Playback Engine only supports the Duality Strings Regular (and no colors or con sordino) at the moment, I would not have been able to use Sul Ponticello. I hope that Noteperformer 4.5 will introduce colors and con sordino so that I would be able to use Duality Strings for that.
• The playback from NPPE Synchron was in my opinion way better than the sound from VSL expression maps based on the dynamics and phrasing (all "out-of-the-box"). At least I was not able to get a similar sound with justifiable effort.
• Downside with NPPE is that I do not have the flexibility with presets, I can not use a second instrument of the same library (e.g. flute 2 in addition to flute 1, oboe 2 in addition to oboe 1, trumpet 2 in addition to trumpet 1 and so on) and could not benefit from Dorico's live stage to spread the players on the stage

So that's why I am looking now for any improvements in my workflow/doing that will give me a good sound with the necessary articulations, options to mix... and everything with justifiable effort. Probably my next score will in addition to woodwinds, brass, percussion and strings also require some choir and solo voice parts. So that will be another, probably even bigger challenge for me.

@mducharme said:
If you use VE Pro, the only remaining limitation in Dorico honestly is the lack of VSTi parameter automation, as well as not being able to have audio tracks.

You can't have audio tracks within Dorico, but at least you could remove parts of the score to export audio/wav for a single instrument or a section of instruments which you could further manipulate in a DAW.

@mducharme said:
For me, I am finding it easiest to do 99% of the work in Dorico, get it sounding absolutely perfect with all effects and fully mixed, and then bring it to the DAW sometimes if additional things are needed that are too difficult to accomplish with MIDI.

Due to the fact, that the latest Dorico version has already so much DAW-like functionality, I like your approach with doing most of the work within Dorico. Looking into the future, it might be at some point in time that Dorico and Cubase will get closer together, so having all required adjustments in one place (Dorico) might keep things a little bit easier.

[mducharme]

@RaPaSa said:
The playback from NPPE Synchron was in my opinion way better than the sound from VSL expression maps based on the dynamics and phrasing (all "out-of-the-box"). At least I was not able to get a similar sound with justifiable effort.

This is what I find is not true, personally. I get almost as good of a sound with the VSL expression maps, and better if I put a small amount of work into it. NotePerformer is great, but it is a black box that makes decisions for you.

Here is an example of the default output I am getting with the VSL expression maps (NotePerformer not involved): Ilia's Theme

Arne has also basically said NotePerformer will never support Duality Sordino and Colors.

[skram]

@mducharme thanks for the advise re sordino strings! I went along and just bought both of the Dualitys;) Now, finding that alot of the articulations are missing in the installed expression map from VSL, is this a known issue?

Are people adding to the map in ways of custom additions, or are there other sources one might draw benefit from?

Best

Henrik

Oslo

[skram]

... I should add that my post is regarding the use of Duality Strings (regular and sordino) with VePro and Dorico 5, and as such not well suited for this thread, apologies!

h

@skram said:

@mducharme thanks for the advise re sordino strings! I went along and just bought both of the Dualitys;) Now, finding that alot of the articulations are missing in the installed expression map from VSL, is this a known issue?

Are people adding to the map in ways of custom additions, or are there other sources one might draw benefit from?

Best

Henrik

Oslo

[mducharme]

@skram said:
Now, finding that alot of the articulations are missing in the installed expression map from VSL, is this a known issue?

Which ones are you finding are missing? Some techniques don't really necessarily work in Dorico like the runs, in that you write one note and you hear a whole series. There are ways around this but usually VSL doesn't program the articulations where the notation won't automatically match what it sounds like - so this includes sudden dynamic contrasts like fortepiano and such.

I occasionally extend the VSL maps myself yes, and I give my extensions of them a slightly different name (put my initials in front) to avoid getting it confused or accidentally overwritten by an upgrade.

Symphonic Riot is also developing expression maps for the Synchron series right now for Dorico. Because theirs are going to be for-cost, I assume they are likely to be more comprehensive in terms of articulation choices. I will be quite interested in what they come up with.

[skram]

Well, actually I think I can make most of them, like trills other than M and m 2nds etc. Wold also like to trigger portamentos.

But how will I make them work across the regular/con sord switching? Are they trigger via "Midi trigger regions" ?

Excited about Symphonic Riot, used them in the past with VI. Found them perhaps overly complex, but looking forwards to see them! His manual was a proper Phd-thesis;)

[mducharme]

@skram said:
But how will I make them work across the regular/con sord switching? Are they trigger via "Midi trigger regions" ?

You'll have to study the existing map to see how it is done. The con sord vs regular switching is done via expression map entries, not MIDI trigger regions. A lot of the things happen magically because the combined patch has the same techniques in the same slots.

[Mavros]

They use add-ons in the Dorico EMs to switch between CS and non-CS. So if you add a new articulation key-switch chain in your EM and this articulation exists in both the CS and non-CS library at the same "position" in the key switch tree, it should work without issues independent of CS settings,

[Mark Schmieder]

I may be wrong about this, but I feel that the controllers do not kick in as quickly as the key switches, at least in some contexts. And though I have bitten by this the most in the organ player, I am pretty sure that the engine is the same across all players and that the main difference is the GUI and the workflow. But I could be wrong on that as well. At any rate, I also feel that controllers are harder to control with precision, but of course there are input devices that are probably more ergonomic for multi-controller input workflows.