Automating parameters with the same name

[robertrussellcomposer]

I'm having great difficulty setting up automation for an FX plugin (Native Instrument Guitar Rig 6) that, due to its nature, uses the same name for some of its automatable parameters.

After saving, closing, and re-opening the VEPro7 Server Project, the automation mapping seems to get confused.

I'm having some other issues with this particular FX plugin (see this post), so have decided to replicate this "same name" problem with an integrated plugin, Vienna Analyzer Pro (VAP). I'm currently using VEPro7 version 7.3.3725.

Set up a new VEPro7 Server Project and insert VAP in the first FX slot on the Master Bus.

Note that VAP has two automatable parameters named Bypass.

Assign a MIDI Controller to each of the Bypass parameters. I'm going to use CC21 and CC22.

Connect the VEPro7 Server Project to a DAW (I'm using Cubase), and set up a midi channel with CC21 and CC22 lanes.

Input some MIDI data into CC21 and CC22 and observe that the first Bypass parameter controls the bypassing of VAP on the Master Bus strip itself and the second Bypass parameter controls the internal bypassing function within VAP.

We observe the following behaviour. Note that on the Master Bus a bypassed plugin looks greyed out, whereas within VAP if bypassed the button will become orange.

Now disconnect the VEPro7 Server Project from the DAW, save everything, close everything, re-open everything, re-connect everything. This is what is observed.

It looks as though both MIDI Controllers are now affecting the bypass control on the strip itself.

This is consistent with the troubles I'm having with Guitar Rig 6.

My best guess is that VEPro7 is using the name of the automatable parameter to set up the automation mapping when a server is opened, which is not necessarily a unique identifier. This isn't a problem with almost all of the plugins I was investigating before writing this up, which tend to use unique names for (almost) all automatable parameters.

Unfortunately, I really need this to be fixed before I can do what I want to do with Guitar Rig 6. If anyone can think of a workaround then I would be delighted to hear it. Thank you. 😊

[civilization 3]

First observation: a good way to create automation confusion is to do what you've done with Bypass. There is no real life situation calling for it in the first place, this is two interfaces made to do the identical function, one supposes to satisfy the most users potentially.

I recognize you're doing it to prove a point.

Observation number two is it will save time to use the L for Learn button in VE Pro's automation map rather than scroll for it; touch the parameter with the mouse or trackpad click and there it is. So, if you approach GR this way, while the display is two things with the same name, it won't be the same function unless they have duplicated it in the way VSL did in this one case, which wouldn't make much sense.

I was able to experience the confusion, although not identical to yours with two controllers to do the one function.

It may even be a bug. It's avoidable as something we have no need to ever do, though. My semi-replication of your issue was in a CC lane. {Cubase and Nuendo do allow for CC to appear as automation lanes in the Project Window but editing continuous control is much more elegant in the Key Editor controller lanes than in Project Window. I think they have it available as some hardware is only going to give you that, no knowable CC, I saw a case the other day in fact. Bypass is a mere switch so it doesn't matter really.}

Before VE Pro 7, at a certain version, there were no parameter names beyond a parameter number, so we had to keep track manually, I would need to scrupulously order numbers consecutively to avoid having to check everything all the time. But again, I do doubt Guitar Rig 6 is going to be the identical issue as this Bypass redundancy. Right now I'd say the solution or "workaround" is to use the Learn button to assign things and keep a note pad handy to sort it. I don't have time to find a GR6 situation that resembles yours, though I have seen/am seeing "P0" etc (right now past the first say 48 parameters in the preset I loaded).

I almost never use MIDI for Host Automation type parameters as I edit CC in Key Editor and have no desire to use all that screen space in there or create special lanes presets, while in Project Window an automation lane is toggled on/off in one click.

[robertrussellcomposer]

Thank you for your reply, @civilization 3.

I'd like to kindly ask you to re-read my initial post, as you may have misunderstood the precise issue. It's no particular bother to me that some FX plugins have two (or more) automatable parameters with the same name, it's that after saving, closing, and re-opening, the automation mappings all revert to the first parameter.

It is quite clearly a bug; the automation mappings change after saving, closing and re-opening, which can't be the intended behaviour. In fact, the old system of numbered parameters would solve this issue.

I've checked, and this issue still exists when using the Learn function to set up the mappings.

Since it seems you have Guitar Rig 6, try setting up two containers like this.

If you look at the reported parameters in VEPro7, you'll see that there are two Container Control 1's, two Container Control 2's, etc (like the first screenshot in my initial post). If you try to set up automation for any of the controls in the second Container (note there is also an "off by one" issue here, as I mentioned in this other thread), after saving, closing and re-opening, it will now automate the first Container instead.

I've just found a better example, this time for an Insert Plugin. Here is an instance of East West Opus (VST3).

Load any two instruments.

You will find two automatable parameters called Volume, one for the first instrument and one for the second.

Link up the second one. The automation works (in my case CC21 controls the volume of the second instrument).

Save, close, re-open, and now CC21 controls the volume of the first instrument.

[civilization 3]

Sorry, I was thrown by Containers, which I'd never heard of. and MIDI control in VE Pro automation which complicates things esp in my late at night addled brain.

I believe you. It strikes me as strange that GR6 opens a second Container and both are called "1", giving VEP a redundancy to sort. Maybe VE Pro is not made to deal with identical entries, actually I remember when there are actual duplicates it would consider the first instantiation to be 'valid'.

So I did replicate that but I didn't need to restart anything. I wrote automation for the second entry of Container ctrl.1 and it automated the first Container ctrl.1. I'm sure nothing is going to alter that fact.

I have no clue of course. So your only move is to get on VSL Support and make 'em fix it. I tend to think it would take NI's help but maybe not. IE: I think it's a Guitar Rig bug first (but not exclusively), the same kind of behavior in the Bypass notwithstanding. But "make 'em fix it" can be done!

[robertrussellcomposer]

Thank you for taking the time to reply, @civilization 3.

This is almost certainly a VEPro7 bug, as I have now demonstrated this problem with Guitar Rig 6, East West Opus, and even VSL's own Vienna Analyzer Pro.

I will contact VSL Support, linking them to this post, and will report back on any useful details.