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Really not trying to bash the library - there's already a quite disgraceful thread over at V.I. Control for that - but sharing my honest reservations as a long time VSL user. Synchron Woodwinds and Brass are on the horizon after all.
Neither do I as I hope I made perfectly clear. But regarding that very long thread on VI-Control: Minus some of the usual noise from it quite an important read for the VSL team IMO ...
But regarding that very long thread on VI-Control: Minus some of the usual noise from it quite an important read for the VSL team IMO ...
That's why I appreaciate you chiming in here and offering your - in my opinion - very objective and precise observations. It's important to have this discussion in a critical, but objective and level-headed manner. The team should be aware of the criticism, and I do hope they're not looking past it - even if the natural reaction would be to do so, considering th vitriol in the aforementioned V.I. Control thread.
Finally began using the Synchron Strings and they are MIND-BLOWING! Sorry if I am going over the top but this is the greatest string library ever created, it blows everything else off the map. I am so excited by this sound! I now want to do everything I recorded over again with Synchron (even though I love previous VSL strings).
The sound is so perfect out of the box, and the variations of lyrical vibrato legato are sublime. They are heartbreakingly beautiful. It is like having the greatest players right in your room. The real nature of delicately varied, sensitive string playing has been captured by this awesome library. I have only started to audition it and I am just amazed. It is a joy to use instantly. All the instruments sound so perfect and characteristic of the rich and beautiful timbres of these great players. It is a thrill to use these sounds. Congratulations to the VSL for this incredible musical and technological accomplishment. It is the best that has ever been done in the field.
Without saying anything about the critical words, that are written in this thread, I want to say that I recognized myself in the reaction of William. All I can say this moment from my own experience is, that I love the overal sound of this library and are thankful for the choice I made, to be an "early bird".
There is something strange in this library, on sustains and legatos to be precise. When I play it, bash random notes on keyboard it sounds fantastic - incredibly responsive and playable as hell. Maybe not 100% "realistic", but fun and almost impressive. But when it comes to sequencing, things start to look different, it's much less fluent, much more complicated and the feeling of responsivness fades out like a morning mist.
Today I finished my first synchron based piece (it is on my Orfium for interested ones - name is Dusk) and while I truly love the sound I must admit that I had few bumps during sequencing it - and it is not complex piece of music. The biggest problem was too much attack on legatos and sustains, sometimes almost close to mild sfz. I managed to tame it a bit with changing attack with cc's, but it is far from "a new level of ease-of-use." Also when I used repetitions on longs, second one started always with (much) more attack.
The second thing which baffles me is hugeness of the whole thing. We've got 7-8 velocity layers for longs but during crossfade reduced to 5-6. So why do we need so much velocities on sustains? Should we rely only on velocity control and let go the changes of timbre during sustains?
I don't want to be taken as a troll, because I love the sound, I love expressivness, I have no problem with basic set of articulations (but I paid early bird price and took advantage of free voucher promo). But I'm afraid that any expansion with additional articulations will make this library way, waaay too big (with missing legatos it is more than 200GB, so we will get about 260 - 300GB for standard lib when they come out).
I'm one of early birds, I know I bought unfinished product and I still believe that Synchron Player will improve workflow and controls substantialy (because it is clear that VI is not great for multi-mic setup, even though I love this piece of software), will add legato control (speed, volume), will use those new algorithms you guys wrote about on site and make sequencing a breeze. But it would be nice to get confirmation from VSL that indeed in current player not everything works as intended.
Yes, I have to say there is much to love about the sound, but respectfully, the legatos in their current form are not realistic sounding, in my opinion, let alone “reinventing” legato as the marketing claimed. I still have high hopes that further developments are happening that will produce something that lives up to those claims.
I own many of the big flagship string libraries, and I'll take exception to the claim that it's the "greatest" out there. It's not and in fact there are worrying aspects to a degree that I am even reconsidering keeping Synchron on my system, let alone invest in further Synchron products. When VSL announced Synchron I was al giddy, expecting this to be excellent and a revolutionary product compared to every competitor out there, specifically the legato. But right now after downloading all of it disappointment has set it. I can get way more musical results from competitor libraries with minimal effort when it comes to soaring string lines. And while I recognise that the legatos are currently incomplete, the ones which were released are not inspiring confidence. It seems realism has taken a back seat to playability, the legato transitions are extremely short and the destination notes lack necessary liveliness. I'd have expected VSL to take a close look at how competitors have delivered over the past years when it comes to wet string libraries and legato, for you'd want to improve on those rather than release a product which IMO seems to belong in the past.
But it would be nice to get confirmation from VSL that indeed in current player not everything works as intended.
Hey,
good that you started to explain your concerns here in this forum, in a respectful way. Everything is said so far and I totally agree with it, especially on the legato issue. It does sound a bit synthy, because every player is totally in tune. Other libraries manage this in some way, I don't know why. I am not a string player, so I cannot judge for myself on the nature of a legato, but I have to confess that I am spoilt by all the other libraries in terms of their legato sound. Maybe VSL has a different thinking on what a real/true legato sounds like? Or are all these other libraries wrong in their thinking? I am just asking, I am not blaming anyone.
It would also be nice to know which type of legato it actually is. The terms "fingered" (slurred?) and "bowed" legato are in a way standardized. Are the regular legatos bowed ones, so they sound more detached, because VSL used to sample détaché on every other library, and now this articulation is missing?
For me (I have obtained the standard version) the list price is too high in relation to the articulations, and I am missing some "basic" articulations like spiccatos, and of course, some re-inventions as promised. I don't know if the emphasis lies on traditional or a more hollywood-like approach. I would rather prefer the second one and I hoped so, because VSL assembled this "Scoring Bundle" in one of their recent monthly offerings. I don't quite like to name other libraries here, but take Cinmatic Studio Strings (CSS) for example: They have spiccatos, col legnos, harmonics and a simulation of con sordino. Okay, this is Synchron Strings I, but it would help if one could get a hint of what to expect from the second volume? More articulations or a con sordino version? Maybe divisi?
My final thought is: If Synchron Player will improve the legato sound and other issues, why do VSL let us fumble with VI Pro knowing that it is not sounding good? Or are they convinced of their sound? Then, actually, I expected way too much, and I think I can expect more in relation to what other libraries developed over the years in terms of legato, usability and innovation. A simple marcato overlay is no innovation for me, sorry. When I read "different bowstroke attacks" I expected some Spitfire (or Orchestral Tools) behaviour as in their Performance Legato.
I hope I was respectful, I actually always want to be. The overall sound of the samples is gorgeous, especially on the lowest velocities (= the room as an instrument). And I want this library to be great, it has definitely GREAT potential.
I wish a happy New Year 2018 to everyone! 😊
Jimmy Hellfire, the Old Muppet, needs his ears cleaned out.
I have used all the string libraries since VSL came into existence in 2000 - actually before with Garritan, Siedlaczek and MIroslav - and THIS IS THE BEST. Especially out of the box.
The legatos are fantastic sounding because of the variations as well as the number of velocity layers. The amount of detail now created in the performance by all the dynamic layers is what puts this over the top compared to any other library.
It is obviously not yet complete. I thought that was obvious. Also -concerning how much resources it takes - I downloaded this entire library onto my secondary slave - a single modest i7 4770 4-core with 32 GB of RAM and it performs FLAWLESSLY. I haven't even tried it yet on my Xeon system.
If Jimmy Hellfire had the Berlin Philharmonic or London Symphony at his disposal he would probably be sniffing "It is not good enough for me ... the legatos are not smooth enough... the staccatissimo is simply too short! " This is a common behavior today - criticize something great to make yourself appear discerning and sophisticated.
Hi William,
do you mean that the legato of other libraries actually is wrong or even worse?
A lot of people (inlcuding me) are accustomed (or even spoilt) to the sound of these "hollywood" slurred legatos. Nearly every other library nowadays sounds like this, so I guess it has become a "standard" in some way. As I mentioned in my previous post, I'm not a string player, and cannot judge on the nature of a legato, but I have to confess that I do prefer the competition.
Jimmy Hellfire, the Old Muppet, needs his ears cleaned out. (...)If Jimmy Hellfire had the Berlin Philharmonic or London Symphony at his disposal he would probably be sniffing "It is not good enough for me ... the legatos are not smooth enough... the staccatissimo is simply too short! " This is a common behavior today - criticize something great to make yourself appear discerning and sophisticated.
Clearly, the level of vitriol is not reserved to the VI-Control forum, only ... William, we all appreciate that your opinion seems to be quite contrary to ours and of course there is always some level of taste involved with judging the liking or no-liking a sample library. But, please, do respect opinions deferring from yours in the same manner. We are all here because we wish the best for VSLs success, except some of us have some problems with how this product has turned out so far. This is by far not a minority opinion, so you should not consider that all bollocks.
I have used all the string libraries since VSL came into existence in 2000 - actually before with Garritan, Siedlaczek and MIroslav - and THIS IS THE BEST. Especially out of the box.Wow, blast from the past. Do you live in a bubble William? If those are the best examples you can think of it looks like you skipped more than a decade worth of innovation. Plus it's really sad if you have to compare Synchron to those outdated libraries, "it is better than Miroslav" is certainly not doing Synchron a favor.
Hi William,
do you mean that the legato of other libraries actually is wrong or even worse?
A lot of people (inlcuding me) are accustomed (or even spoilt) to the sound of these "hollywood" slurred legatos. Nearly every other library nowadays sounds like this, so I guess it has become a "standard" in some way. As I mentioned in my previous post, I'm not a string player, and cannot judge on the nature of a legato, but I have to confess that I do prefer the competition.
The legati of many string libraries today are exaggarated. For example, even the standard, normal speed legato in Cinematic Studio Strings is actually VERY slurred. Same as with many other aspects of today's life, apparently some musical characteristics need to be almost comedically over-sold to be noticed.
It's not bad. It should be within a sophisticated libraries' repertoire. But the problem with Synchron Strings legato isn't the characteristics. There seems to be something inherently odd, maybe even off in the scripting and/or editing. It's not that is sounds "different", it doesn't sound or behave quite "right".
While there is something to like about the short notes, it seems to me for the sake of playability the sampe starts have been cut to early. I surely like to have a short patch as playable as Synchron, but when it comes at the price of getting unrealistic results, I would prefer a less playble one (or rather an option to switch between playable and good sounding, like other libraries offer without the need of loading an entirely new set of samples into ram).
@dterry, I really don't think that the point of a multi-mic library is to not use them. I could also save system ressources by not using half of the articulations. Or using Violins 1 only. You get the point.
Generally, with multi-mic libraries, I don't think that using a single mic position is good or desirable most of the time. Not with Spitfire, not with Orchestral Tools, Cinematic Studio series OR Synchron.
But ressource requirements themselves aren't my main point of criticism. An advanced and modern library of course will need the horsepower to drive it. I'm already used to that from other demanding professional libraries. As a matter of fact, I'm currently in the process of putting together a new build and I'm most definitely not cheaping out on fast SSDs and RAM.
But I'm asking myself if there is room for Synchron Strings on this new system. Because even though it's a system that is tailored to and prepared for heavy lifting - there has to be a point in doing so. The costs and benefits have to be at some kind of justifiable ratio. But by the time the legati for the other sections are done, we're probably be talking about 250+ GB (!!!) of disk space for the standard library alone, while not offering anything I can't do with a 32 GB library, perhaps even less. That's where I need to start questioning things.
It's not bad. It should be within a sophisticated libraries' repertoire. But the problem with Synchron Strings legato isn't the characteristics. There seems to be something inherently odd, maybe even off in the scripting and/or editing. It's not that is sounds "different", it doesn't sound or behave quite "right".
Thanks, your answer helped a bit understanding. 😊
I noticed that, too. There seems nearly no hearable transition at all compared to e. g. Orchestral Strings. Even those could be a bit longer, in my opinion. I think Synchron Player will fix this. I still keep on citing those "innovative algorithms" over and over again. But re-invention? When they are only referring to velocity layers and their new recording procedure, than I'm disappointed.
@dterry, I really don't think that the point of a multi-mic library is to not use them. I could also save system ressources by not using half of the articulations. Or using Violins 1 only. You get the point.Generally, with multi-mic libraries, I don't think that using a single mic position is good or desirable most of the time. Not with Spitfire, not with Orchestral Tools, Cinematic Studio series OR Synchron.
No, the articulations single-sections analogy isn't valid here - two very different tradeoffs.
Of course the point of multi-mic is to provide options, but it doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't use a single mic if needed, or if multiple mics simply are not necessary. I'm not sure what you are suggesting VSL give up to allow you to run all articulations and mics. Velocity layers make a noticeable difference when using velocity crossfade via cc fader. How much RAM are you trying to fit this into?
I would think anyone buying libraries with these options would be well aware of the need to configure systems, and mixing options, to make use of them, or be willing to compromise. Surely users don't think they can run a full Synchron orchestra template on a 32G, or even 64G PC with all mic options. I wouldn't consider building a new system with less than 128G at this point, even before Synchron.
Fwiw, OT's Berlin strings work fine with a single mic, if you use the right one, or have the score mixed by a score mixer (done that before). What sounds good "out of the box" doesn't necessarily work as well in a mix, especially with other libraries in a complex score, at least when these are not just for mockup reference.
To bring something positive back to this thread - Synchron is a new standard, at the very least for the surround/Atmos options. Every library requires some work and skill to get convincing results, if you write for the music instead of the samples. There isn't much VSL, EW, OT, Spitfire or anyone else can do to change that.
Sovereign:
I wasn't saying I only used those only! Are you kidding? I have been using all the current string libraries including all of VSL - I meant that I started with those and have used everything since. I thought that was obvious.
Jimmy Hellfire and all you experts: what music do you actually do? I haven't heard anything but a lot of talk. I want to hear the music you actually do, not just a lot of blabbering.
Here is an all Synchron mix of a piece I previously did for Production Music Online. Violins and Cellos are lyrical vibrato legato, violas and basses long sustain.
William Kersten
Hi William,
I went to the "No greater Love" link and had a listen. A very lovely and nice piece of music. Sounds very expressive.
thanks for sharing ⭐
Steve😃
Hi Steve
Thanks, nice to hear from you! I am really excited by the sound of the Synchron strings. Each VSL library has a different sound, for different expressions. This one is the most complex and probably along with Appassionata out of the box the most perfect. Though Synchron beats even Appassionata because THERE IS NO MIXING!
I did nothing but play the tracks in MIDI on this. That is incredible. Of course I could tweak it if desired but that is what is amazing about the library. Just load and play. On this piece there is only one articulation for each instrument. Though of course it is a simple piece. But espressivo legato is what I first try to judge about a library's sound and the Synchron is so beautiful and characteristic of each instrument.
