@DG said:

Yes, the actual position change has a very distinctive sound and currently there really is no way to fake this, even with all the options available with DS.

Boy, what a big job that would be! There are so MANY shifts possible, on VC and DB they often shift every note or two!

True, but it is less important with Cello as the samples are a bit more slidy anyway and melodies tend to be less frequent. DB doesn't really worry me, because even slurring is less frequent.

Having said that, I have a product specification for how to organise things for Violin, so I'm sure that it is possible to do one for Cello. In fact (big OT here) I've already recorded some Violin samples as a proof of concept. Just haven't finished editing them yet, although it seems promising so far. The biggest issue is that if you didn't know anything it would be really difficult to use.

Anyway, back to bow change samples. Yes please...!

DG

Hi Alan

About "Bow Changes" Even if we don't have such specific up- and down-bow articulations we can simulate a natural "bowing" close to the reality. These points help...

1. First of all. Really "draw in" the bow directions into the score how in reallity.

2. Try to find those articulations which support the sound and the feeling of up- and down- stroke.

3. Let correct gaps between notes for certain bow directions. Example: Twice a down stroke needs time between the two notes for moving back the bow for being ready for the second down stroke.

Here is a little example (No26.). For fast notes see >>> here at youtube, This helps as well.

Further, I believe that chosing "good" articulations can make those new articulations nearly unneccessary. This example (No21.) shall demonstrate my statment. I also believe that 90% of the users would have more a new problem than a help with such new up-/down-stroke articulations.

Beat

PS I agree that power users of VSL-Libraries shoud have a lot more articulations and of course the story around "dynamic vibratos" should be a next project - at least with solo instruments.

@Beat Kaufmann said:

About "Bow Changes" Even if we don't have such specific up- and down-bow articulations we can simulate a natural "bowing" close to the reality. These points help...

I have yet to hear an example where this get close to acceptable. Whilst I agree that in most cases up or down bow is irrelevant, there still needs to be that "pft" sound, together with the subtle change in dynamic that currently has to be drawn in. So far there is not the possibity to do this with VSL. One can't even really do this:

Detache

DG

Thanks for your comments. 😊

Some of what you say is true, but only up to a point. I am a very experienced chamber music pianist, and I can tell you that  your ex. 26 does not sound at all the way a violinist would play it. String players work for years to be able to play this kind of melody without a noticeable gap in the sound. There is a specific noise as the bow changes, but the sound does not stop.

Solo strings are (along with voices) the most difficult thing to simulate, for a reason: there are so many things they are controlling, at the same time, to make the music come alive:

1) intonation 2) vibrato speed and depth 3) bow direction 4) harshness or softness of bow attack 5) changing the pressure of the bow during a phrase or even one note 6) changing the speed of the bow during a phrase or even one note 7) where they play (nearer to the fingerboard or the bridge) 8) on which string they play the note 9) where to make the shifts 10) portamento or not. And there are probably other things I can't remember right now!

My point here is not to denigrate VSL, not at all. As I have said elsewhere, VSL libraries are the cornerstone of my sample banks. It's just that there is a contradiction between real live musicians, who never play two notes the same way (and if they are good, the differences will be musically meaningul), and recording samples, where, for obvious reasons, they try to get the players to play each note as similar as possible to the others around it.

In my case, the thing which often causes me the most difficulty in mockups is a lyrical melody with sustained notes. If I just play it as it, the sustained notes are too smooth and even. I often really do go in and sculpt them, one at a time, with the appropriate midi controllers, but that is a LOT of work, and sometimes it's not enough. For example, not all wind instruments can fade away to nothing, so a controller 11 fade is not realistic. And if the dynamic samples don't have exactly the right duration and amount of fade out, they can't solve the problem.

Of course these are subtleties, and I agree that most users don't have the interest or the real world musical experience to bother about these things. But this is where the state of the art is at this point. And, as in the past, I am sure VSL will be bringing new and better tools for us in the future.  😊

@Beat Kaufmann said:

Hi Alan

About "Bow Changes" Even if we don't have such specific up- and down-bow articulations we can simulate a natural "bowing" close to the reality. These points help...

1. First of all. Really "draw in" the bow directions into the score how in reallity.

2. Try to find those articulations which support the sound and the feeling of up- and down- stroke.

3. Let correct gaps between notes for certain bow directions. Example: Twice a down stroke needs time between the two notes for moving back the bow for being ready for the second down stroke.

Here is a little example (No26.). For fast notes see >>> here at youtube, This helps as well.

Further, I believe that chosing "good" articulations can make those new articulations nearly unneccessary. This example (No21.) shall demonstrate my statment. I also believe that 90% of the users would have more a new problem than a help with such new up-/down-stroke articulations.

Beat

PS I agree that power users of VSL-Libraries shoud have a lot more articulations and of course the story around "dynamic vibratos" should be a next project - at least with solo instruments. 

Totally agree with Belkina,

Bow changes is something that as not been well covered by any strings libraries that I have used (VSL and Others). With the exeption of the solo violins perf-detache patch but it will works only for a limited speed range.

When working a lot with sample libraries we tend to forget the real thing.

But as a workaround I like to use those articulations for the bow change notes. I think those works well with Dimension Strings, but it may be different with other libraries)

Detache Long - legato...

Detaché Short - pTrill

perf-rep Leg - legato

Dyn 2s (Dim) - legato (velocity curve mod on Dyn)

fp - legato (velocity curve mod on fp)

The choice depends on tempo and dynamics.

to deal the lack of connection sample between legato and detache I make the legato note a bit longer (to fill the gap).

I adjust the velocity curve of the dynamic patches to avoid too strong accent.

I'm working mostly with Dimension Strings, not much with Solo Strings recently. 

I honestly never succeeded in creating a decent solo string part as a final product. I alway's hire musician in that case where interpretation is crucial and complexe.

For vibrato speed it sometimes work better to use progessive vibrato legato because the player start vibrating progressively after attacking the note. A well chosen crescendo patch can be helpfull for the first note of a phrase. It may be a good thing to push the release of the cresc patch in that case. 

"I honestly never succeeded in creating a decent solo string part as a final product. I alway's hire musician in that case where interpretation is crucial and complexe."  -  FredB

This statement is somewhat annoying to me.  Partly because this could simply be due to your inability to do a MIDI performance, rather than a problem with the library.  And partly because it is obvious if someone hires a player who is really good, then they will probably be good competition to samples.

However, my experience is very different.  I came from a classical background, was a professional orchestral player on horn for twenty years, and had many live performances of my own works.  But I have never had as good a performance as what I have recently done with VSL.  In fact, I released a song-cycle "Earth and Paradise"  - http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/williamkersten  - which was premiered by a chamber orchestra live in a large concert that was well-received and reviewed, but the playing of the orchestra simply was not as good as VSL, and so I re-recorded it with the soprano and VSL for this CD. 

Statements made by people here about how a live player is always better mean very little, since it depends on how good the MIDI performance is, not necessarily on the library.

Though on the original topic of this thread, I agree more samples are always better. 

Hi william,

We just have a different approach. No matter if you use samples or live musicians,  at the end, there is alway's just the music.

I'm not saying the library is the problem and I know it's possible to program a good solo string part. It just takes a lot of times, times that i prefer to spend composing and recording. I do midi programming a lot, everyday long.

When it comes to chamber music or a single solo strings part , I'm more than happy to record some live musicians when it's possible. I like to get out of my studio, write some scores and speak to musician about the music and the movie (I do music for pictures a lot).

Or I could spend this time in my studio trying to get better at programming solo parts. Of coarse.

VSL is an amazing sample library. there's no doubt.

Sample libraries is a tool i need and use everyday to make the music that make me live.

Sometimes I use it just for the composing stage, sometimes it's the final product.  Listeners will not care about if it's live or programmed or both.

Fred

unless anyone else asked for:

- Sul Ponticello also for Chamber and Dimensionstrings

- all Sul Tasto/Flautando for all Stringlibraries

(I still am quite amazed from the embertoneconcept to let the user chose the Bowposition with a slider between Ponticello up to Flautando/Sul Tasto)

- col legno "tratto" ! Why does only the IRCAM Soloists have samples of that interesting way to play! (of course for all strings)

best fahl5

@fahl5 said:

- col legno "tratto" ! Why does only the IRCAM Soloists have samples of that interesting way to play! (of course for all strings)

Probably because it's the most stupid bowing ever invented, and most players would refuse to ruin their bows by attempting it.  😉

DG

That seems to be really an extremly intelligent answer. 😛

However there are several important scores in 20t century music which  are obviously "stupid" enogh to demand exactly that way of playing. And I fear that was the reason what has made the IRCAM-musicians "stupid" enough to produce that kind of Samples for their Soloinstruments.

Btw. Obviously I would also like to have muted Dimension Strings (but do expect that this would be something VSL is already working on)

@fahl5 said:

That seems to be really an extremly intelligent answer. 😛

However there are several important scores in 20t century music which  are obviously "stupid" enogh to demand exactly that way of playing. And I fear that was the reason what has made the IRCAM-musicians "stupid" enough to produce that kind of Samples for their Soloinstruments.

Don't shoot the messenger.

DG

I would personally first spend money to buy more articulations, and only then follow with improvements (positional changes, dimensions, up/down-bows, etc.), which I agree are also necessary. With libraries globally catering more and more to the current Hollywood scoring simpletonic epic/drone needs, I am not keeping my hopes too high, but more ensemble (if not solo) articulations that have been around for 100 years in symphonic music by composers such as Schoenberg, Bartok, Hindemith, Stravinsky and Varese, let alone Lutoslawski, Boulez, Stockhausen, Xenakis, Penderecki, Crumb, etc., if not Lachenmann, Grisey, Saariaho, Dusapin, etc., I believe are to be expected, if not actually being mandatory arsenal in the virtual compositional domain.

One cannot live on spiccato alone.

Or can he?...

You made the Point👍

There is no modern filmscoreing without the full sonic imagination explored by the 20th century music. To make their full pallette of orchestral colours available is defenitly a question of distinctive quality for orchestrasamplelibraries.

However VSL is of course already most impressive in this aspect, but flautandos, ponticellos are in my opinion currently far from the level they should be and col legno tratto would be likewise a reasonable addition to make VSL ready for modern music production.

Actually, to stick to the topic at hand, one articuation that would be nice is half and whole step trills in Dimension Strings (as opposed to performance trills) though that is probably already in the works for some time later. 

What are the chances that VSL will offer new/complementing String Libraries to their current Strings Libraries ? 

Actually, I have a feeling they are working on a lot of new exciting products, be that new Libraries, or the next generation of VI-Pro and VE-Pro , ..etc. Since it has been relatively quiet this year,  Dim-Brass II was the main new release this year. 

Probably the main priority is additional Dimension Strings, and the Choir.  Since VSL can create the greatest virtual choir in sampling history, they MUST do it!  (One must do what one can do...) They have the technology, they have the musicians, now they must create the choir that does not exist anywhere else in sampling - a word-singing, totally realistic choir to compliment the total realism of VSL's orchestral sounds.   No one else has been able to do it. 

The reason I mention the choir is that I now use VSL as my only orchestral samples, because their VE interface is so good to use for performance, as well as the fact that the recorded sounds are so good that no other libraries are truly comparable for the entire orchestra.  So I gravitated to VSL ONLY for normal orchestral sounds (except for some non-standard instruments) BUT!!!!  ---  the choir is a huge problem right now.  One must choose between the nightmare word-builder EWQL symphonic choir with no true legato and the hideous "Play" interface,  or various "ah-ee-ooh" type choirs such as Requiem, etc. which cannot do true word building.  (Except for the very nice Prague soloists and choir, though that is not a full-sized choir.)  This is a bad forced choice, and something that VSL can capitalize on right now, because there is no true word-singing full symphonic choir with legato out there.    

So that hijacks the thread away from strings (sorry!)  but I think both the additional D-Strings and choir are the most needed new samples from VSL right now. 

I've been whining for a boys choir for years now😢

Imagine having the world famous Vienna Boys' Choir at your finger tips😇  Even if it is just oooh's and aaahs.

Even though I do own EWQL choirs and voices, I would buy a word capable VSL offering, and if VSL did consider developing this, an idea would be to sample the choir in non-liturgival styles as well (I know, huge undertaking). The way EWQL - and other choirs I've heard - sound, it is difficult to simulate lighter, faster choral arrangements without sounding strange.

I'm not too fussed for more Dimension Strings at the moment, I would much rather have a separate Violin II section, Appassionata and otherwise. Why not a separate box though of really extended techniques (extreme sul pont., extreme sul tasto, legno tratto - use old decrepit bows, different kinds of harmonic glissandi, the speed of which would be managed in VI Pro, playing or striking below the bridge on every string, etc., and these are just the mild suggestions). I would buy this in a second, and so I would similar boxes for the other instrumental families.

I agree on the extended techniques, and in fact that is one major area throughout all the orchestra where VSL could expand, especially considering how these sounds - originated by formerly avant garde but now very old composers - are now used in film scoring.  The once shocking modernism has trickled down into pop decoration.