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... I'm all for transparency and detailed information, and it would surely be nice to have some clarification from the people at VSL regarding this topic, especially since it isn't fully explained in the manuals. Crossfade phasing is an issue we are facing in this current generation of sampled instruments, and need to be able to work around....
Long time since I even had Velo XFade enabled for a solo instrument, but I did just now go to verify, using the Bb trumpet. 2-layer or 4-layer, there is a pronounced issue of phasing at every XFade so far, I can't use it. Dynamic samples all the way for me with a solo instrument. If it's a 'concertmaster' supposedly in front of a loud orch, maybe we can hide but I know it's there.
8Dio in that Adagio series has rhetoric as though they've gotten around this but I was confused and I think that workflow isn't for me, so...
I'm glad of the dynamic samples in the deeper libraries here.
8Dio in that Adagio series has rhetoric as though they've gotten around this
@BachRules said:
With VelX on, doubling at occurs at settings not corresponding with the Velocity Histrogram, and at other settings I hear no doubling.
Well, I think it should be obvious, that, as the wole thing is called crossfade, there is not a leap from one CC-value to another, but a certain range in which two layers are actually x-faded. This usually should happen around the split points, but I guess the VSL team made little adjustments to best suit the individual patches.
[quote=MassMover]... I guess the VSL team made little adjustments to best suit the individual patches.@BachRules said:
Don't cross-fades by their very nature play two layers at the same time? Isn't playing two layers at the same time what Jimmy is refering to when he writes, "doubling/chorusing"?
Long time since I even had Velo XFade enabled for a solo instrument....
I hadn't realized it jumps between layers, instead of fading, when VelX is disabled. Now I hear that it jumps instead of fading when VelX is off.
Many sampled instruments have a sudden difference between a given velocity on note-on and the next, I can't let that bug me. I would rather deal with CC expression to smooth that out than have that phasing, which just sounds awful to me. Now, I'll expose the instruments and as an M.O. I write linearly/contrapuntally with monophonic instruments often so I don't really go for masking this sort of thing in the first place.
Hi,
@BachRules said:
Is there any way to ask where exactly the crossfades are occurring without a bunch of people getting defensive?
This information is available in your Library Manuals in your User Area, each patch is documented with the split points in velocity.
Best,
Paul
@BachRules said:
Is there any way to ask where exactly the crossfades are occurring without a bunch of people getting defensive?
This information is available in your Library Manuals in your User Area, each patch is documented with the split points in velocity.
Best,
Paul
Thanks, I see that, but I am wondering where the crossfade ranges occur when VelX is turned on? In that case, there is a range of values inside which range two velocity layers play simultaneously. Looking in the manual I don't see where this range is.
After some experimenting, it seems the crossover range is roughly 9 values long, leading up to the split-point shown in the manual; and it seems this range doesn't have anything to do with the "velocity split points" shown in the Histogram. If that's correct, my question is answered. I am just hoping to know in general, so I don't have to run experiments on each patch individually to find the ranges.
Many sampled instruments have a sudden difference between a given velocity on note-on and the next, I can't let that bug me. I would rather deal with CC expression to smooth that out than have that phasing....
I like that I have a choice between jump-points and crossfade-ranges; but I don't like having to run time-consuming experiments to locate the crossfade-ranges, as their location is undocumented. And the people who act like I slapped a baby if I ask where the crossfade-ranges are, because I am not supposed to admit there is a chorus-effect under some circumstances.
I was talking about orchestral useage with reverb, such as three solo trumpets with MIR, using crossfades. No phasing is audible. No difference between dynamic samples except for expression, or personal choice. But no technical problems whatsoever.
Bachrules, you ask how the recorders can have no phasing - don't ask me, ask VSL. That is what I noticed to an amazing degree but you question it without ever trying it out. Fine, go ahead and don't believe me. What do I know? I will let you all figure this out to your satisfaction. You all know far more than I ever could I'm sure.
btw, Jimmy - thanks for noticing!
goodbye Forum...
There is no phasing with velocity crossfade in sustaining vsl instruments. They are different samples, and do not phase at all.
@William said:
... the recorders are one solo library that actually does have zero phasing no matter how you crossfade them.
How is that possible, unless it leaps suddenly from one velocity layer to the next, instead of fading between them? Don't cross-fades by their very nature play two layers at the same time? Isn't playing two layers at the same time what Jimmy is refering to when he writes, "doubling/chorusing"?
VSL only recorded a single dynamic for the sustaining articulations of the recorders (although they recorded two different dynamics for the shorts e.g. staccato).
Hence the velocity xfade on sustaining articulations is never crossfading between two different recordings, and hence there is never any 'doubling' audible (because there isn't any). All the velocity xfade is effectively doing is turning up the volume with no change in timbre.
If you use velocity xfade on the short articulations of the recorders like staccato (not that you'd want to in practice - it is usually more intuitive to use velocity to control dynamics for short articulations) you WILL hear the doubling effect at the point where the two different dynamics recordings are heard at the same time.
@William said:
There is no phasing with velocity crossfade in sustaining vsl instruments. They are different samples, and do not phase at all.
@BachRules said:
...because I am not supposed to admit there is a chorus-effect under some circumstances.
Nonsense, everyone here is well aware of the chorus problem and it is spoken freely. That is why it is not recommended to use velocity x-fade on solo passages. I can only guess about the reason no one answers your question about the cross-fades ranges, but I would suspect it is simply that no one cares.The information provided in the manual about the split points is clear enough and requires little divination.
Just a note: the "chorus" effect is called "phasing" colloquially, but it is technically wrong. Phasing requires two identical samples and that does not occur in VSL at all. Civilization's "doubling" is a much better terminology.
@William said:
BachRules,
Sorry, I didn't mean anything unkind to you.
Likewise. I hope you're not leaving. I am learning a lot from your posts about various subjects, sometimes old posts when I Google and they turn up. I don't mean to discourage your helpfulness.
Just a note: the "chorus" effect is called "phasing" colloquially, but it is technically wrong. Phasing requires two identical samples and that does not occur in VSL at all. Civilization's "doubling" is a much better terminology.
What's your authoritative source for the definition of "phasing"?
What's your authoritative source for the definition of "phasing"?
Reality. The effect of phasing, akin to a comb filter, quires two identical waveforms displaced in time ever so slightly. If they are different you get the illusion of two instruments playing, which is called doubling in orchestral terms. Everyone that recorded two microphones pointing at the same source faced this, and it is the same principle of the phasing effect on guitars. I would suggest you to try it, but I suspect you are only asking to be confrontational.
