Has anyone gotten further with this tempo change clicking in Kontakt 5 issue?

Someone earlier said that it only happens when Kontakt is in VEPro, I have proven this incorrect. It is happening when Kontakt is opened inside Cubase 7 here.

If you score film/TV, this issue is a huge one; I'm constantly trying to figure out how to work around this, but usually it's a huge inconvenience and time waster to solve. And I cannot write any accelerando or rallentandos, for sure.

Thoughts?  NI still doesn't quite feel film scoring composers rank high enough to sort out problems specific to them!

For those people still having problems, did you test what I sugested over a year ago and use tempo jumps, rather than ramps?

DG

That solution does not solve the problem, whether it's a jump or a ramp, there is an audible click/pop at the tempo change.

Thanks,  Mr A

That is my experience as well. Whether it's a jump or a ramp there is an audible pop.

I have not experienced this problem in DP or Logic which both use Audio Units. Also this does not happen with non kontakt instruments. So it appears this is a problem with the VST plugin version of kontakt for tempo synched instances. Is NI aware of this?

Hang on a second. Now I'm confused. Are you saying that with a Windows slave, running VEP with Kontakt, and a Logic/DP host machine, this is not a problem?

DG

That is correct. This seems to be a problem with VST. Cubase running on windows connected to a VEPro slave on windows exhibits the same problem. Change the Daw to logic or DP using Audio units and tempo changes work with no distortion.  

I have a support ticket in with NI re: this Kontakt issue. I find it hard to believe that there aren't more Cubase users having this problem. 

Interesting that it's potentially a VST issue. I have not used tempo sync loops in Kontakt much at all in the past, so I might not have had this issue show itself in the past.

The thing is, it doesn't matter what the host is, Windows slave machines always run the VST version of Kontakt, so even if you're using Logic you are still using VST on the slave.

This tells me that it's not a VST Kontakt problem per se, but it is either a Cubase problem, or a VST connector problem. Does anyone here have Studio One or any other VST host to check? Actually as DP now can use VST, it could be checked using that, couldn't it?

Regarding people not having problems with Cubase, be aware that there are many more Cubase Windows users than Cubase Mac users, and it may not even be a problem in Windows. I can't test it for you, as I'm not using slave machines.

DG

Increasing the buffer size in my VEP server instances in Cubase fixed it for me. Took some of the load off of the CPU.

i was running 7 instances within Cubase (each with 4-7 instances of kontakt/play) at a latency value of 1 (buffer of 128). Increased them all to a latency value of 2 buffers and no more problems... Yet.

Jdiggity, have you tried putting a tempo change in your Cubase sequence and as you play across it, with Kontakt is ext sync mode, and you're not hearing a click or pop? Or try a tempo ramp up or down and see if it clicks.

would love to think that increasing the buffer as you said solves the tempo change Kontakt midi sync issue.

thx,

Mr A

Hi mc202vt,

I am getting the distortion/clicks again. Not as bad as before, but my buffer workaround is no longer working for me, as it seems I am using too many instruments. 

As mentioned by others, the issue is a CPU spike, so increasing my buffer size's gave my CPU enough head-room so that it wouldn't max out when tempo ramps occured. However, as I have been working on the same project, I am adding more instruments, some of which are synthesizers, which are using more of the CPU and causing the distortions to happen again.

Fortunately I can afford to use tempo jumps in place of ramps for this particular project, but I will have to find a 'cure' before I start my next one.

You can see from this screenshot that my CPU spike occured across all Cores, reaching about 77%.

When I finish this project I shall do some testing and report back here with the findings (if any).

This is a big problem that no one seems to be addressing.  I have to export all my mixes as the problem is not in the export.  In real time I have issues with every tempo change.

I've done some more work on this.  IMO it has nothing to do with VEP but is a Kontakt issue (or Kontakt plus Cubase issue - I'm on Cubase 6.0.7).  It is really only a problem with complex patches, or for those of us with large templates where the effect is exaggerated.  

I've finally come up with a simple repro that anyone who owns NI Komplete can test.  I'd love to hear if you can reproduce this in your host.

Firstly, set your soundcard buffer as low as it will go to exaggerate the effect but certainly no higher than 256.

Here is the repro (in Cubase for PC):

1- Load up Cubase

2- Open a new empty project

3- Open up the tempo track (Control-T)

4- Draw in a long tempo ramp over several bars (make sure the insert curve dropdown is set to 'ramp' and not 'jump')

3- hit F11 and load up an instance of Kontakt

4- load up 16 channels of the patch 'Scarbee Clavinet - Full.nki' from the Scarbee Vintage Keys library which is part of Komplete (I chose this patch because of it's complexity and because it is part of NI's Komplete.  There are plenty of other patches from 3rd party libraries that are equally complex and demonstrate the same effect - several of the 'combined' patches from Spitfire's Sable library come to mind)

5- hit F12 to see the 'VST Performance Meter'

6- Ensure that Kontakt is syncing to the host tempo by clicking the 'Master' tab (to the right of the 'Browse' tab) at the top of Kontakt, and checking the 'Ext' button  is lit yellow

7- Move the transport to just prior to the first bar of the tempo ramp and push play

8- watch the ASIO 'meter' go ballistic when it hits the tempo ramp. (Note, that nothing is actually playing)

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9- Switch off Kontakt's 'sync to host tempo' by clicking the 'Ext' button off

10- watch the ASIO meter drop down to almost zero

The lower the soundcard buffer is or the greater the number of complex patches there are in your template, the more exaggerated the ASIO spiking.  For those of us working in film and tv this issue is critical.  Avoiding tempo ramps and relying on tempo jumps reduces the frequency of the spikes / crackles / pops but doesn't eliminate the problem.  Simple patches with few groups/zones and little to no scripting aren't affected, only complex patches like the Scarbee clavinet patch but there are plenty of others.  Even if the patch is only moderately complex the culmative effect of many such patches (particularly if you are using Kontakt banks) adds up across a larger template..  

I've left a support ticket with NI

Brett

Hey Brett,

I can repro this problem here for sure. What exxagerates the pop/click in Kontakt is when any tempo synced effects are present in the patch (i.e. delays, etc) while in ext tempo sync. I score in TV/film and I am always dealing with a click where there is a tempo change. This serverely slows my workflow down ans sometimes, I'm not able to totally get rid of the noises this issue creates. I can never use a tempo ramp in my composing due to this.

Definitely a Kontakt problem in Cubase, and NI has never responded to my support ticket of months ago. Guess I'll have to do it again.

Keep us posted on any luck on your end.

Thanks,

Mr A

For what it's worth, NI haven't responded to my first support ticket of 3 weeks ago, nor a second support ticket I posted 2 weeks ago.  So I posted a third support ticket yesterday alerting them once again to the first two tickets.  I've also posted on an existing thread similar to this one on the NI forums three weeks ago and have had no response there either.  

Pretty shabby effort.  It's not as if I haven't done any leg work at my end. I can only hope that they respond to other devs like VSL quicker than ordinary paying customers like me

Yes Brett, NI did respond and asked for a video of what the problem is; they asked me to install some video capture software to do this and I'm not about to put something on my computer to do this. I really do need this problem solved and it is so easy to repro that I don't understand why they need me to do all of this for them. If only I wasn't so busy........

Mr A

Ridiculous isn't it.  The repro takes 2 minutes...