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  4. Dimension Strings - Proper way of creating 2nd Violins with Transposition Trick

  • Dimension Strings - Proper way of creating 2nd Violins with Transposition Trick

    S
    S

    I want to use the Transposition/Pitch Bend (PB) trick to create 2nd violins although I'm not sure the best way to go about this.  Here's what I'm doing:

    In VI Pro 2, in Advanced mode, under the Edit menu, I can lower the instrument two semi tones.  This should trigger a different sample than the normal one for each key (but a whole tone lower).  Next, in the performance options, I make sure the PB range is set to 200 and assign it to a MIDI controller.  Then with the MIDI controller, I raise the pitch back up a whole tone.  This way, when I play a note, I should trigger a different sample from the normal that key would produce (happens in realtime btw as long as my MIDI controller is set to bend the pitch back up).  Thus, I can play a line on 2nd violins that shouldn't cancel or phase with the 1st violins in unison.

    The problem is, I have no leeway to adjust the tuning as the PB range is limited to 200 cents.  So if I need +/- a few cents to adjust the tuning I don't have that option.  So is there a better method that I'm overlooking?  Please let me know if there is an alternate method and the preferred method to accomplish this PB trick.

    Also, how many sample points/ octave are used in Dimension Strings? Where they sampled with a whole tone scale or with individual semi-tones?  I looked but couldn't find this information in the literature but I'm sure I missed it.

    Gregory D. Moore
  • I
    I

    Why would you want to do transposition trick? DS has eight players, you can simply divide it - 4 first, 4 second. And combine each section with Orchestral strings {they has violins 1 and violins 2 patches}.
  • S
    S

    Because, greedy ba$tard that I am, I might want eight firsts and eight seconds.  [;)]

    Seriously, its a common technique, and there a various different approaches so I'm curious as to what others are doing and if there's a better method I haven't run across.
  • S
    S
    i would do the "back transpose" to the right key inside the daw. i use logic where transposition can be assigned to every single instrument. i do the same when playing trumpet parts from a Bb-transposed score.
    *edit* ok, that doesn't help as you need to detune inside VIpro anyway.
  • W
    W

    You should not do it this way.  It does not sound as good to RAISE the pitch acoustically, rather than LOWER the pitch.  Vibrato becomes too fast, and brightness is increased unpleasantly.  You should do the reverse - LOWER the pitch of the instruments with pitch shifting.  Especially with sampled violins it is important to prevent them from becoming to0- bright, thin and whiny. 

    The simple way to do this, which is always used and works o.k. with Dimension violins, is to transpose the MIDI track up one or two semitones, and then pitch-shift the instrument down one or two semitones with a CC - which is within its range of operation. A pitch shift of 64 down from the middle - or "0" for the controller controller - equates to two semitones.
  • LAJL
    LAJL

    The best was if the developers Support us Users with ready 2 use Presets in the future.
  • W
    W

    Well they've done that with the other strings - like Appassionata, Orchestral, Solo and (unless I remember wrong) Chamber have 2nd violins, but I don't even bother to use them most of the time since this is exactly the same thing and once set up in a template or as an .fxp file it is available as readily as the main patches.
  • S
    S

    Thanks for the replies although I have a few questions.  It doesn't seem that any of the methods suggested allow you to play transposed in realtime as my method does.  Is this correct?  So if you're sequencing parts it should work fine, but if you like to play parts in, you're going to hear them out of tune until after you record and then pitch shift in the DAW?  Huh?  Is this correct?  I could never do it that way.

    So is there a reason you guys are not using my method? (push sample up in VI-Pro Edit menu and then pitch bend down with a controller). As it should produce the same results but in realtime.  

    @ Saxer - I have Logic although I'm not as familiar with it as with DP.  I'll check out this "back transpose" you speak of.  Although, this is only after you've recorded right?

    @William - Yes, I suppose you're correct, it would be better to choose a higher sample and then transpose down.  Thanks for the heads up on this!
  • S
    S
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    @William said:

    The simple way to do this, which is always used and works o.k. with Dimension violins, is to transpose the MIDI track up one or two semitones, and then pitch-shift the instrument down one or two semitones with a CC - which is within its range of operation. A pitch shift of 64 down from the middle - or "0" for the controller controller - equates to two semitones.

    I see, you're playing it "in tune" but just doing a silent compensation afterwards.  OK, makes sense.  Although I think this is functionally the same as the method I mentioned, just that I'm doing it on the patch level.  I can see the advantage of your method in not needing to edit each patch though.  Still, both push the tuning right to the limit so there's no room for any additional leeway....so in a perfect sample world, if all works out, it shouldn't be needed. [;)]
  • W
    W

    No, there is no problem with playing out of tune - just use the proper approach to that - the humanize presets. I don't do any compensation.   I have recently been doing tests of just how far one can go with detuning. It is interesting how if you apply the detuning of extreme out of tune woodwinds to strings, they sound wonderful!  But with woodwinds, they sound like a bad high school band.  That is a comment on how difficult it is to play in precise cent-measured tuning on strings in an ensemble, compared to other instruments. 

  • S
    S
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    @William said:

    No, there is no problem with playing out of tune - just use the proper approach to that - the humanize presets. I don't do any compensation.   I have recently been doing tests of just how far one can go with detuning. It is interesting how if you apply the detuning of extreme out of tune woodwinds to strings, they sound wonderful!  But with woodwinds, they sound like a bad high school band.  That is a comment on how difficult it is to play in precise cent-measured tuning on strings in an ensemble, compared to other instruments.

     

    I wasn't referring to the tuning effects of the humanize presets.  I was referring to when you play the 2nd violins using the transposition trick using your method.  Thus, when you play them, they sound the proper pitch.  Then afterwards, you transpose them up, and bend them back down so again they sound the proper pitch.  I'm sure you get the idea now, the internet just confuses discusssions. 
  • S
    S
    @synergy543: in logic you can do the transposition in realtime. use the transpose-function in the instrument inspector (below the region inspector). all settings there work in realtime and only for the selected instrument. the downside of this method is: all your midi editors don't show the actual but the transposed pitch which can confuse in the composing and arranging process. if you use the score editor: there you can use a score style with transposition (like clarinet or trumpet) to show the actual pitch. but there's no transpose function for the key editor.
  • W
    W

    There is no need for transposition afterwards, it is done in real time simply by transposing the track at the time of playback within the sequencer. That is what I meant.   It is best to transpose it by setting the track to play 1 or 2 semitones higher rather than actually transposing the written notes - though you could - since that becomes more complicated if you are still editing it.