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  3. New users in the dark or not?

  • New users in the dark or not?

    R
    R

    This message isn't meant as any negative review of your libraries. It is a cry for help.

    I have Special Editions Strings Vol.1 Strings, Special Edtions Strings Vol.1 Strings PLUS and Vienna Instruments PRO 2. It is running on a Windows machine, W7/X64, i7, 24 GB RAM, 4 HDD's (2x 500GB, 2x 1TB). Sufficient to make it work, I think. I am not in the mood for additional computers, so some software/usage for LAN etc. isn't in the picture.

    I started composing with the computer in 2002 with some very modest programs  i.e. rudimentary DAW, notation programs, The Grand (-piano Steinberg) and the JV1010. Later I found out about Garritan and bought the full GPO, the JABB and the so-called Stradivari Solo Violin, much later the Steinway Professional. It took quite a while to get those things work - I never became friends with the JABB and the Stradivari Violin. I was happy - apart from the "sample bugs" in all Garritan libs I had.

    Then much later via updates, crossgrades, etc. I purchased SONAR 8, EWQL Symphonic Orchestra Platinum+ and was astonished by the quality of sound and the ease of handling the numerous articulations. But again, some serious sample problems (switching panning, etc.) drove me into the arms of Vienna, trying to get a better sound for solo string instruments. EWQL released Hollywood strings and all demo's were "cinematic" or "epic" (even those for my original SO Plat+). I am not making movie tracks!! I listen to Bruckner, Mahler, Prokofiev and Shostakovich (of course also everything from Albrechtsberger to Glass) and they aren't epic recordings.

    Looking at your demo's, quite a lot aren't recordings as made in a Concert Hall, they are drifting towards "epic" or cinematic. Looking at your instrument setup where Strings are combined with Strings 8va, in my point of view, this is not the real thing; for me a violins section is a violins section. Listening to your demo's, I wonder how you made them. Since I'd bought my Vienna share of instruments, I experimented with sounds, articulations, crossfades, veloXF's and other stuff, had my share of the instructions on video (over and over again), re-read the manuals, but never it sounds like the ones in your (non-epic) demo's. Pity. Some sample errors stood in the way. I noticed that some strings articulations of the free orchestral strings had different panning. Why? Some articulations were implemented quite different than what I expected. Even distorted.

    But setting aside these things, the overall sound is great, better than EWQL. But why aren't there separate samples for violins I vs.violins II as in Garritan? Why do I encounter phasing when I assigned my violins I and violins II in different instances of VI? The EWQL-PLAY doesn't have this as far as I've noticed. Why panning shifting on different articulations? Has it to do with the transition of recorded mono to stereo (timing issues?).

    And the main question is, how on earth are you guys making the demo's suited for my ears so wonderful sounding? Are you using different instruments? Are there any hidden secrets? For me and a friend of mine (who also has Vienna stuff), it would be very useful when somebody made some tutorial - video of not - of how he/she made it, step by step. Now it is like the Sorcerer's apprentice who is left in the dark.

    When a great product isn't explained fully, telling about all knobs and sliders, then even a Ferrari is disappointing. Make the dashboard comprehensive, please. If not, then I stop purchasing new things, because I can't use them the way they are designed for. You may direct me to the website of Beat Kaufmann. He has some tutorials, but I refuse paying for these instructions, they must be an integral part of your product. The instructional manual of any car (or else) must not be subject to third party commercial activities. The forum isn't giving me the answers I am looking for. Is it really so hard for some guys letting others know how they did it or is this again some "I did it my way" and I am not telling how.

    Maybe useful, I always work with written notation and midi from it.

    With regards,

    Raymond
  • andiA
    VSL Team
    andiA

    Hello Raymond!

    I am sorry to read that you are having trouble using our libraries. In our tutorial videos and manuals we are explaining all functions and "knobs" of our software. To stick with your comparison, it is not the task of the car manufacturer to teach you how to drive. That has to be learned at a driving school.

    You are not writing which notation software, you are using, but the following links will show you some more learning resources:
    http://www.vsl.co.at/en/65/71/176/71.vsl
    http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/20177.aspx

    Please note that usually it is easier to get good sounding results with DAW software like Cubase, Logic, Pro Tools or Sonar than with notation software. They have more powerful tools to edit MIDI data and for mixing.

    The Strings+Strings 8va patches are just an add-on. Of course these patches are also available without additional 8va samples.

    If you play Violin I and Violin II in unison, they will use the same samples. This way phasing artifacts will arise, especially if they are triggered from hard quantized MIDI data from notation programs. If you choose different articulations for the two violins or violin groups, this problem shouldn't be there. Our bigger Strings instrument collections will also come with Violin 2 patches.

    The Special Edition matrices and presets should always be centered by default. Where did you find a cell that has a different panorama setting?

    Where did you find "distorted" samples or articulations?

    In order to enhance your sound, you might also be interested in getting MIRx for your Vienna Instruments Pro software. This will provide you with easy to use convolution reverb extensions that will make your playbacks sound more natural instantly. You can find more info and get a free demo license at the following location:
    http://www.vsl.co.at/en/211/497/537/2579/2230.htm

    Best regards,
    Andi

    Vienna Symphonic Library
  • R
    R

    Thank you for the answer.

    It is of course not the car manufacturer teaching me how to drive. I know how to drive, but some knobs and handles aren't clear in combination with weather conditions....... besides that, a car isn't a instruments library. You aren't explaining the knobs, you are telling that the knobs are present for some effect. It is just as the help function with Perfect Space in SONAR, e.g. "this knob is the delay, which can be set from 0-100". But it doesn't say what is really does and how it effects the sound.

    When you had read my message carefully, you could have read that I am using SONAR as a DAW. And I am writing music with a notation program. I don't want Cubase or Sibelius. I am using Overture, which is powerful enough with lots and lots of midi editing (which I do in SONAR for complicated stuff).

    It is not a cell that makes a different panning, it is the recorded sample. There is nothing wrong with the cell. I always keep everything centered, the appropriate panning comes to live in SONAR. I don't want MIRx, I am using Altiverb (pity, still a 32-bits application, but the best reverb plugin in the world).

    That phasing issue is another story. I tried shifting the unison notes a bit and still when the sounds overlap (for the rest of the note duration), the phasing is there. Why should I use different articulations? Then I must alter my composition to accomodate the sample library? No way!!

    I include a short example of changing panning   https://app.box.com/s/cwppjgu3k6izgztygv3h  -articulations used are staccato, heavy attack on sustained note, sustained note, instrument Violins.

    Regards,

    Raymond
  • andiA
    VSL Team
    andiA

    Ok. So which function or knob do you not understand in particular?

    I have read your message carefully. That's why I mentioned Sonar. [;)]

    Of course I didn't mean that you have to alter your composition to accomodate the sample library. Nevertheless you could trigger the legato patch with one violin and the sustain or portamento patch with the other - just to give a simple example.

    The Solo Strings were close miked. As it is not possible for the players to stay exactly at the same position with his instrument all the time, the panorama of the samples varies a bit. Normally you will not use the full stereo width of an instrument but position it either with Power Pan or with MIR. After that you shouldn't get the impression of a jumping panorama anymore.

    Best,
    Andi

    Vienna Symphonic Library
  • R
    R

    Better to stop with this conversation. The example wasn't a Solo Violin, it was Orchestral strings Violins. Obviously you didn't hear the difference.

    And I haven't heard of a walking violins section, they sit steady, waiting until the conductor says/signals :  "OK, ready for coffee!".

    Raymond
  • andiA
    VSL Team
    andiA

    Ok, sorry. I didn't follow your link. In a violin section it may occur that some players play louder sometimes than other ones, which also leads to a varying panorama. Anyway, I'm not sure why you have such an angry tone. I was trying to help.

    Vienna Symphonic Library
  • R
    R

    In a violin section it may occur that some players play louder sometimes than other ones, which also leads to a varying panorama.

    This was just an example. I have more, e.g. staccato followed by legato and vice versa and it is clear to me that there is something wrong with the recorded samples. They differ in panorama - listening with headphones - so wide that I got confused which instrument was playing in the first place (I panned violins 1 to the left and violins 2 to the right, more or less as a baroque orchestra). Somebody I know suggested that it has to do with some other settings like CrossFade. I am not sure of that, it seems a bit far fetched.

    This conversation wasn't meant to be hostile, but when you cannot handle criticism it is ok with me.Nevertheless you and your company made an outstanding sample library.

    Raymond

    Raymond
  • E
    E

    I don't consider myself a power user of the library, but certainly a power composer by comparison with what's around today. I am happy to read about another composer that is not just interested in lobotomotive music and wishes to exploit all nuances of the incredible VSL, and I personally wish they would record many more instruments and articulations - and I wholeheartedly agree, first of all they should certainly bite the bullet and make a completely separate Violin II and Solo Violin II sections/pleyer. Combining Orchestral with Appassionata Strings, or using different articulations, EQ etc. as Andi suggested, may get some results, but it really is a poor man's substitute; not what the flagship of sample libraries should be about...

    However, and to my knowledge, VSL is the only library with so many demos that don't cater exclusively to the beat mongers (the opposite in fact), and Andi personally has composed quite a few tracks for the videos that very much fall within the realm of proper music, when he could just as easily have clicked his mouse a couple of times to arrpegiate some inane sequences in order to showcase some new addition to the library or software. Now that is just great and requires effort and time which he could have easily saved without hurting VSL's sales - maybe he did hurt them!... Similarly, VSL and thankfully EWQL as far as I know, have yet to record huge slabs of Hollywood earblockbuster claptrap for the deaf hopelessfuls (alla Gluemina, INaction Strings, etc.). I for one am very grateful for that.

    As far as how to use the library to its potential (i.e. tutorials etc.) is concerned, they don't have to do anything, and they probably could not even if they wanted to. The best demos I have heard save for the original Blue Danube, have come from users who, understandably, won't publicize their secrets and will protect their livelihoods. Beat's and VSL's own tutorials address the beginner to intermediate level users, and then we are all on our own.

    The other important thing to remember is that most of the other "libraries" address the """""""""Epic""""""""" cloneposers, and their knobs and buttons seem to be easier and get more immediate results, simply because those results are the only ones they are capable of. That's what they were created for. VSL's vast palette that allows for so many different kinds of musical use (as so many disparate demos from the top users have proven), has resulted in a "dashboard" that is much more sophisticated. To continue the metaphor, VSL is a Ferrari, and as such can be driven by an old lady, somebody like myself, or Schumacher, and of course the course results will be appropriate in every case. The difference with most other libraries/cars is that Schumacher will also be satisfied by VSL's handling.

    Since VSL has yet to embrace my idea of its own notation+DAW all-in-one, my wish is that it will continue to explore more user friendly (i.e. musically intuitive) ways to work with the leading notation packages on the market. I compose with Sibelius and I will pay serious money for a "magic" VSL something that will read my sophisticated notation with all articulations and dynamics as automatically and integrally as Sibelius Sounds, ARIA, or NotePerformer do, during the compositional stages, and then it is up to me to export everything to a DAW for intricate nuances, automation, etc.
  • R
    R
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    @Another User said:

    As far as how to use the library to its potential (i.e. tutorials etc.) is concerned, they don't have to do anything, and they probably could not even if they wanted to. The best demos I have heard save for the original Blue Danube, have come from users who, understandably, won't publicize their secrets and will protect their livelihoods. Beat's and VSL's own tutorials address the beginner to intermediate level users, and then we are all on our own.

    Why won't they publicize their secrets? This is a secret for me. When you put something at the Compositions area of this forum, why not telling (when asked for) how you did it? How did you do that great portamento? Is the Pitch wheel involved? Users on other forums do this regurarly.

    Since VSL has yet to embrace my idea of its own notation

    I will go for this, but bring another 10 mil with you..........(haha). Please no, Vienna is strong in making sound libraries, others are more or less strong in notation programs, but some cooperation between those disciplines will be very welcome. Make programmers musicians and musicians programmers and hire authors for writing decent manuals.

    This develops into a very interesting discussion, thank you Errikos

    Raymond
  • R
    R

    I am not a bookkeeper but this table puzzles me:

    Standard: full price € 490 - savings € 130,- = ?

    also with the other columns.

    RR
  • P
    P

    The "Bundle Savings" is the difference between the bundle price and the unbundled price of Solo Strings 1 (not muted) plus Solo Strings 2 (muted). The price of those separately would be € 620, bundle savings of € 130 = € 490. The "Your Price" line shows the discount on the Extended library only that you receive as a result of owning the Special Edition. This means you do not pay full price to license libraries that partially duplicate samples you already own, though indeed you pay full price to license the Standard library even though many of those samples are present in the Special Editions. It is a not-so-subtle way of encouraging people to license the Full library. I'm not sure it's necessary, since the Extended libraries contain many articulations that are difficult to live without once you have them, but that's the way it is ...
  • N
    N

    Raymond, just my opinion, but how one converses, even on a website, matters.  To me, your tone is something other than "friendly".  As to why high-end users don't share very much (I am not a high-end user), high-end power users will protect what they have learned through their years of experience.  What they have learned helps differentiate them from other not-quite-as-successful users, and preserve their advantage when it comes to earning money.  One can learn, but there is no subsitute for hard work.

    There is another long-standing technique, often discussed, to avoid phasing between the violin parts.  For the second violins in SE, another possibility is to transpose the part down a whole step (a half-step in the full libraries) and then raise the pitch back to concert level by adjusting the pitch via the modwheel.  Using that technique avoids phasing on any unison note as the two parts trigger different sound samples.
  • R
    R
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    @noldar12 said:

    Raymond, just my opinion, but how one converses, even on a website, matters.  To me, your tone is something other than "friendly".  As to why high-end users don't share very much (I am not a high-end user), high-end power users will protect what they have learned through their years of experience.  What they have learned helps differentiate them from other not-quite-as-successful users, and preserve their advantage when it comes to earning money.  One can learn, but there is no subsitute for hard work.

    There is another long-standing technique, often discussed, to avoid phasing between the violin parts.  For the second violins in SE, another possibility is to transpose the part down a whole step (a half-step in the full libraries) and then raise the pitch back to concert level by adjusting the pitch via the modwheel.  Using that technique avoids phasing on any unison note as the two parts trigger different sound samples.

    Dutch people are direct in their answers and questions. I hate literature in letters. If that offends others, I am sorry.

    I admire those who made outstanding recordings thru hard work, but one can work as hard as possible, trying out different settings, experimenting until kingdom comes and still be at the wrong track or tackling the problem from the wrong angle. Any help will be appreciated in these cases. Not everybody is a MIDI king or a professional in making excellent "mock ups." So far this.

    Your solution with the pitch wheel will be examined and it makes sense to me. Thank you for that. If discussed before at the forum, possible, but after several searches with different keywords I didn't find this.

    Greetings,

    Raymond
  • M
    M

    As you pointed out in the very beginning that you won't be willing to pay beat kaufmann for his work on his tutorials, well, consider him being one of the pro-users of this library who decided to share their experience with other users. He often does this for free by giving hints to other users here in the forum, but if you want his knowledge step by step he wants some money in return.

    You also could consider your piano-teacher as a pro-user of that instrument. Whether you buy a steinway or a yamaha, none of them comes with a manual, yet the "knobs" are quite self-explaining. Still, after some playing around most people decide to get some professional assistance and agree to pay for it.

    Personally I do not know a pro-level audio software product which explains you what a delay is doing to the sound. The manual tells you it's being there - that's it.

    That being said, I still can understand the call for a „First steps into the vienna world“ kind of brochure, maybe in the kind of the tutorials of Sibelius.
  • R
    R

    I think the example of the piano teacher has nothing to do with this subject. With or without the teacher when I press a knob I get a sound and all knobs are giving me different sounds. There is nothing to explain here. It becomes different when I play a violin, cello (and I did this also), a sax or trumpet. There is more than just moving the arm/wrist/hand or blowing some air into that thing. This leads automatically to some manual (as you stated) : How to begin and what are the pitfalls. When it comes to excellent performances I will look for a payed teacher.

    By the way, I had a Schimmel Grand (medium size). If I could do those years again, I would have bought a Blüthner or Erard. I never was very fond of Steinway or Yamaha (played on both during my concerts).

    [I think I solved that phasing problem, not by different pitches while notating]

    RR
  • W
    W

    .
  • R
    R

    Andi, if I offended you, that wasn't the intention. I apologize for that.

    What William wrote is way out of line. I never thought it to be simple and a phrase/held note must undergo some sculpturing to get the best out of it. But when I cannot find the tools for this and when I encounter some problems trying to get it right, then I go to this forum asking for advice, some extended written instructions or explanation in the video's.

    But the nature of this whole thread, accusing me of being rude, impolite, even hostile, is just that. Black is black and not blackish.

    Good bye,

    Raymond
  • W
    W

    never mind - forget my post