What on earth has Hollywood got to do with art?
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I would buy the so-called Sound Design paradigm as an "alternative" to a traditional orchestral film-score, IF:
a) There was some actual and sophisticated sound design involved. There isn't, and hasn't been in this case at least. Hans' sound design skills and output are absolutely commensurate with his symphonic skills and output (i.e. puerile and unworthy of mention). People who think Hans and his team are doing anything special regarding synthesis should spend a month with Eric Persing, and then another month at IRCAM, read a little Curtis Roads and David Cope, to get the first glimpse of what adult Sound Design is about. DJ sound design is for pre-school. So, with that out the window, we come to
b) If somebody is ACTUALLY good in synthesis and it's not easy - the otherwise great composer Maurice Jarre's embarassing Witness being an example - then that is what they should do, and leave the symphonic forces out of the equation completely. A score doesn't have to be "Romantic" to be poignant and effective. But the turd directors and producers that do demand the sound of an orchestra (thank Heavens they still do), cannot differentiate between an adequate score, and a mephitic one...
I came back tonight having survived another "gem" of a score in the movies by a guy I have not heard of before (and hopefully won't again either), that elevates Giacchino's Star Treks and Hans' total oeuvre to the level of the Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun. The movie was Elysium.
To answer the thread's question. Without knowing more than say 10-12 of Hans' scores, I would say that the music to The Last Samurai was at least satisfying. Incidentally, Gladiator was a shameful job, as one of the two main themes was completely pilfered from Vangelis, and the other utterly inappropriate for the subject matter. But I suppose who pays any attention to the subject matter these days?...
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@Dietz said:
This thread will be closed immediately if it derails (as it usually does as soon as these topics and our forum's Usual Suspects converge
).Please go easy on Paul, Dietz. He usually makes some of the most profound and thought provoking points in these forum "discussions" we have it's just that his presentation is a little crude sometimes that's all. Instead of seeing the forum as a place for friendly conversation where we are all sitting around sipping tea, Paul sees it as a bar room brawl where we are all half in the bag drunk.
And on that note, I think Paul hits the nail on the head here once again. Thanks to the proliferation of technology today, people are craving instant gratification. They don't want to think anymore. It's too much work. Just spoon feed the emotions to me. Let the music tell me how I'm supposed to feel and hurry up about it because there are three responses to my response on Facebook that I need to respond to.
Talk about lazy composing? Let's talk about lazy writing. Look at the endless parade of "reality" TV shows now. Instead of finding bright, talented and gifted artists to work together on something memorable and groundbreaking it's easier to take a camera and document the trials and tribulations of a bunch of dysfunctional losers who are left to their own devices. Many movies now are just organized reality TV shows with multi-million $$$$$ budgets.
I actually liked some of Zimmer's earlier works. One film in particular was his soundtrack to Rainman. It was a very simple and minimal score where you have this bright flute-like sound that soars above the mostly synthetic accompaniment. The flute sound was a simple gesture in the middle of this synthetic complexity and rhythm. Although simple, it drove the narrative and commanded the ensemble. It kind of represented Dustin Hoffman's character Raymon; a simple mind in it's own little world but commanding the other characters in the film around him and, in the end, changing Tom Cruise's character forever. Nice work but that was back in 1987.
Somebody else already touched on this earlier but I think Zimmer's biggest problem is he takes too much on and doesn't have enough time. even with his army of sub-composers under him. But then again, and back to Paul's point, when you consider the quality of the films he's scoring for, why bother spending much time at all.
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Paul R states that films today are shit so the music is shit.
that is not true in the case of Dark Knight, and Dark Knight Rises which are powerful, maybe truly great films. And this is what disturbs me. The music is so trite and cliched that I am repelled from the film.
I then think of the nice elfman score for the older Batman, and how that approach - real musical scoring - would have resulted in this particular case - right now - in a truly great combination of music and film. But that is not possible now since everything is "sound design."
Guess what - MUSIC IS SOUND DESIGN.
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@PaulR said:
What on earth has Hollywood got to do with art?
It should!!!
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Yes agreed - music is sound design, but traditional european composition and orchestration technique does not equal all of music.
Interesting debate that I see in book publishing all the time - does a highly popular mass market fiction title have more value than a sophisticated fine art literary work that sells few copies but wins literary awards? Answer: it depends who you ask. If you ask the public, they couldn't care less, they just "like what they like". if you ask a skilled literary writer they'll say mass market fiction is crap. If you ask a publisher, they'll say without mass market fiction sales they wouldn't be able to support their more artistic fine literature titles. Perhaps if flim makers had the same moral sense (and perhaps some do) to use the profits from box-office cash cows to fund some high quality projects, we could be a little more at peace with it.
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@William said:
that is not true in the case of Dark Knight, and Dark Knight Rises which are powerful, maybe truly great films. And this is what disturbs me. The music is so trite and cliched that I am repelled from the film.Here the problem is not Hans Zimmer - the problem is you. The Dark Knight made $1 billion and was highly acclaimed by audiences and critics alike. If you really break it down, there are only 2 purposes for a film like that: to make money and to satisfy the consumers of popular entertainment so that they'll spend money on associated products and future installments of the franchise. By these two measures alone, it was a total success. Obviously the music did not hold it back.
Now, I'm not saying that you should like the music, or that the music is particularly great. What I'm saying is this: why should anyone expect Zimmer's music (or the modern soundtrack in general) to sound any different? Time and time again, Hans Zimmer has come in and done his thing, and the movies have made billions of dollars. If you're in the business of film, and you share the two goals outlined above (making money, satisfying consumers) you look at that and you say "Get me Hans Zimmer..." or more likely "Get me someone who sounds like Hans Zimmer." That's where we are now, with regard to mainstream commercial cinema.
There are filmmakers who actually want to have good/interesting music in their films, and there are composers who can give it to them, but that music doesn't necessarily appeal to you. That's because FILM has changed, and so has MUSIC. The creative and market forces that would dictate using a Korngoldian score do not exist right now. That style was most prominent at a time when that type of music was a popular type of music. Since then, film composers have learned that recorded music, as a medium, is not just for capturing musicians in a room, but in fact allows you to put a magnifying glass over particular sounds. When music was only transmitted via musical notation, composers had little control over timbre other than by choosing the instrumentation and hoping for the best. But once composers wrapped their heads around the ability to set a single specific sound in stone, timbre began to take over from tune as the dominant paradigm. Synthetic instruments have increased the timbral palette exponentially. A film soundtrack today could be created by banging on empty paint cans with microphones inside them. Is it music? I'm not sure. Is it great Sunday afternoon listening? Definitely not. Could it be the best approach to scoring a particular film? Absolutely. The music you like is of a time, and that time is past. The default approach to scoring is no longer "get 50 musicians and write 20 great tunes." There are infinite ways of exploring the merger of sound and image. I do think that it's a shame composers don't try out a few more of those ways, but don't forget who's calling the shots most of the time: businessmen.
And I'll say this to anyone who loves great music: why the hell would you go looking for great music in film scores? Sure, there are a few good ones, but there are literally centuries worth of great pieces that have nothing to do with movies - why look for musical satisfaction in some hokey studio picture starring some hokey thespian?
PS, I work in the film industry in a creative (non-musical) capacity
PPS, the Dark Knight Rises is irredeemably bad and no score could change that.
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@clamnectar said:
And I'll say this to anyone who loves great music: why the hell would you go looking for great music in film scores?
Because it should be like that. Because Prokofiev (film music originator and one of the most emulated composer in film industry!), Rozsa, Herrmann composed like that. Because of Williams.
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I do not have a facebook account. I do not have a twitter account. I don't even like coming onto forums and making statements of any kind. I have been in the cinema when the film was so utterly boring that sporadic fighting broke out in the stalls and spread to the circle just to relieve the whole thing.
Hans did the music to a film I enjoyed but can't rember the name of hitherto. It was about a bloke and his girlfriend. True Romance. Funny film.
Some of the low budget films put on in the 60's (a lot of them were black & white) usually British, were so bad, audiences just put up with it. What I can't stand about a lot of films over time is the fucking bollocks political points the writer/director is trying to get across. Usually left wing. What film scoring has to do with any of that I really can't say.
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@PaulR said:
I do not have a facebook account. I do not have a twitter account. What I can't stand about a lot of films over time is the fucking bollocks political points the writer/director is trying to get across. Usually left wing.
We share many traits Paul...
The argument regarding films having changed since Korngold's days is both right and wrong. The Star Wars prequels, the first three Harry Potter, and Cinema Paradiso are not that old, but they feature some of the best music ever to grace film, and they form a straight line of inheritance/evolution from the Korngold era. Film music has changed; but out of aesthetic choices and sensibilities, or out of inability to follow the steps of giants? Both the so called Sound Design and the symphonic treatment in many films these days are hilarious and so below par that it must mean something.
Also, when I go to the movies I do look for great concept, great writing, great direction, great photography, great acting, great set design, etc. Of course I don't get it all at once, but as a musician why wouldn't I also be looking for great music in film?
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@William said:
I have a large Golden Retriever named Waldo. Every once in a while he grabs his ball, runs to the fence and snarls while shoving his ball up against the boards, causing the three hounds on the other side to start baying. I just realized -
I am Waldo.
Yes, me too it seems. I don't deny for one moment how great the traditional films scores of the past were, but I'm hoping that my age, preferences and background don't close my eyes to the future possibilities using today's tools. Out of interest, how does Dave Grusin's score to "The Firm" rate on your radar?
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Not all films are great but some have unusually great scores. For example, The Challenge and First Blood. The second of those two films is arguably puerile in the extreme, but the score is great. Jerry Goldsmith was so talented he could lift this type of crap to a false level.
The second recent Batman film made me want to puke and I forgot it 10 minutes after I watched it
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@PaulR said:
I watched Hobo with a Shotgun the other evening. Fantastic!
I'm a bit confussed here Pual. You watched a flick called "Hobo" with a shotgun in your hand? They let you in the theater with a shotgun?
Or you watched a flick called "Hobo with a Shotgun"[:^)]