It is so refreshing to witness discussions in this forum about what is/can be termed a symphony (for what it's worth I also hadn't realized that William's movements had more or less strict formal outlines), instead of discussions on brass swells realism, pleas to VSL to record full orchestral symphobic patches, or the right I.R.s for locomotive string-quavers...

I wasn't offended, and like hearing criticisms and initial impressions. 

On mixing strings, the sound of this is mainly default MIR. I had a little less overall hall wet than default.  Also,  as is normal for many mixes I usually have an individual decrease of wet on basses and a slight INCREASE of wet on violins even though they are closer to the listener than the basses.  I also decided to  EQ the cellos a little in low range because in a concert hall setting they are not as bass-heavy as they are when close miked.  I also noticed that the "bite" settings are very useful for basses and cellos that are more aggressive like loud staccatos or sforzando.  Another thing I did was EQ violins with an analog high shelf down a little because sampled violins tend to be very pronounced in high frequencies compared to hearing them in a concert hall.   So on violins there is overall a slight increase in reverb and a slight decrease in high frequency.

by the way, is there any point to putting MIDI and VE setups along with scores and recordings?  I had thought of doing that on the same webpage, because I have noticed a few people wanted to look at those, to check out the effect of certain keyswitches, controllers, etc.  That would ostensibly be the point of posting something like this, since just showing off a piece of music is a little irrelevant to a Forum.  Maybe that should be a requirement for anyone posting music here, to post the MIDI file etc.   Because otherwise, it is as if you are trying to keep secret how it was done ----  on a Forum that is about how it is done! 

@William, if you could post your MIDI, VE setup details, you'd be doing a tremendous service to the entire community, I frankly do not understand why that is not s.o.p. for -all- the VSL demos. There is no end of frustration for noobs to hear those wonderful sounds, dole out thousands of dollars and then... sound -worse- (initially) than the 'out of the box' sounds of some other libs. The learning curve of VSL is steep and seeing how the sausage is made is fantastic. I've PMd several demo composers for this info and it's striking that they all seem puzzled by the request... because for them, the techniques are so basic... like riding a bicycle, I guess. But one forgets just how tough it was to learn to ride after one has been doing it for a while. PLEASE DO!

@Winknotes: Musical criticism, like anthropology, seems to change with time. I can only tell you how -I- was indoctrinated... There was an inherent superiority ascribed to those composers who had internalised formal logic to the greatest level. Basically the Viennese. And in the 20th century? Bartok. Stravinsky. Webern. 'Beauty' and 'Romanticism' were given 2nd place in terms of 'greatness'. Beauty and 'feeling' were considered somewhat like 'empty calories.'  And the latter works of Mozart or Beethoven were more highly regarded because they had grown more fond of counterpoint and less concerned with 'pure melody'. Brahms was so loved because his work was 'nutritious and delicious'. Wagner reviled as gluttony incarnate. I thought a lot of this was just rubbish; glorifying 'structure' the way some people admire 'engineering'.

But I now see the truth in a lot of this. The thing I realised is that Brahms natural setting was counterpoint, thematic development. He didn't have to -work- at it. It's who he was and that's why it was so good. Very few of the 'beautiful' pieces of the Romantic literature are as interesting to me now as the 'deep' pieces. Beethoven's Symphony even symphonies are much prettier, but much weaker than the odds. The early quartets more fun but far less satisfying than the latter. I think the 'Romantic' drive of just bathing in a beautiful melody doesn't fit within those boundaries. When I hear a Tchaikovsky symphony, I hear a very gifted -songwriter- struggling to escape from a formal straitjacket.

This is called: getting old.

---JC

Speaking of symphonists and getting old, I somewhat agree but also disagree.  Because in getting old I am trying to figure out what is really valuable.  As a result, though I appreciate great works that represent thought and form such as Beethoven's late quartets, I actually value Tchaikovsky of the 6th symphony more than ever, because it truly evokes powerful emotion within the symphonic form.  And that is a valuable achievement in itself that will never lose its meaning.  Also, the structure of the 2nd movement is the equal of any classicist, but almost no classicist could ever create anything as powerful as that march - not even Beethoven (at least most of the time though obviously in the 9th 2nd movement he did).   Though Brahms is always a perfect example of the blending of feeling with structure.  On the other hand, Mahler in the 6th symphony shows the ultimate fusion of form and feeling, but then evolves beyond that in the 9th symphony (and partial 10th) to create something unique, neither Classical nor Romantic.    Though all this is probably a just another recurrence of the old debate between Classical and Romantic which can never be won - only argued about and indignantly defended.   Almost as bad as PC vs. Mac!

@William said:

Speaking of symphonists and getting old, I somewhat agree but also disagree.  Because in getting old I am trying to figure out what is really valuable.  As a result, though I appreciate great works that represent thought and form such as Beethoven's late quartets, I actually value Tchaikovsky of the 6th symphony more than ever, because it truly evokes powerful emotion within the symphonic form.  And that is a valuable achievement in itself that will never lose its meaning.  Also, the structure of the 2nd movement is the equal of any classicist, but almost no classicist could ever create anything as powerful as that march - not even Beethoven (at least most of the time though obviously in the 9th 2nd movement he did).   Though Brahms is always a perfect example of the blending of feeling with structure.  On the other hand, Mahler in the 6th symphony shows the ultimate fusion of form and feeling, but then evolves beyond that in the 9th symphony (and partial 10th) to create something unique, neither Classical nor Romantic.    Though all this is probably a just another recurrence of the old debate between Classical and Romantic which can never be won - only argued about and indignantly defended.   Almost as bad as PC vs. Mac!

You're probably right.  It is a matter of opinion mostly.  I just think one could find examples of great structure and beauty in melody, counterpoint and all.  One example I'm thinking of is Barber's 1st symphony in one movement.  It's a brilliant form with some killer melodies.  Granted it's not the formal design of Mozart or Beethoven but great architecture nonetheless.  

I do agree with most of what you say SunTower.  I totally agree that counterpoint is sorely lacking in most composers' vocabulary today.  I'm certainly guilty of this myself but endeavoring to correct it.  It takes ALOT of work which is why I think most people don't try to write anything contrapuntal.  Also I agree that what people hold up as models (namely movie music) is a poor example for writing concert music.  At least in terms of form/design and development.  It's not a knock on film music but its purpose is quite different than concert music.  It's that simple.  Now I do think some film composers have a brilliant craft and the orchestrators in hollywood are very good as well.  But I always try to point people to the source of what these guys/gals are copying (for the most part) and study that rather than the 1-2 minute movie cue. 

I enjoy debating these things though even if there is no resolution.because it makes me think and maybe consider something I hadn't before.

Forgot one thing re. 'Reverb'. I call this the 'John Barry' effect. Next time you watch an old James Bond movie, the reverb on the some of the string cues are almost Tiki Time. If you were to hear 'John Barry Night' at your local 'pops' concert, it would probably -suck- unless half the players were off-stage like in Wagner. Clearly, the composer knew he could use that as a studio effect, like a guitarist with a delay pedal. A guy writing concert music wouldn't even be aware it was possible.

Frankly, most of use get the majority of our ideas about 'timbre' from movies and games... and much less from sitting in a room with no distractions and listening to a CD of an orchestra recorded in a 1,500 seat hall.

I think what feels -normative- in terms of reverb has actually moved away from reality in the same way that most people mis-perceive -lots- of things nowadays because we're saturated with 'bigger than life'. Another example: ever notice how FUCKIN' NOISY the world is? And how bright... even at night? For most people, it's never -really- 'quiet' or 'dark'.  It may -feel- dark or quiet, but if you went out to a desert you'd go 'Wow! I forgot.' That's how I feel about DAW reverbs. The truly realistic amount no longer sounds like 'enough'. And I kinda blame movies. ;)

YMMV

---JC

Never mind, though I do love John Barry.  Lion in Winter is one of the all time great film scores.  

Sorry about that, I reloaded it with the score, MIDI file and Vienna Ensemble file complete!  (Though I don't have the MIR setup anymore, it includes all the keyswitched articulations and instruments.)  The MIDI files are literally more than a year of work.  Though not continuous I have to admit.  I had to take time off to maintain some semblance of sanity.   Also, I put Invocation and Ritual for Orchestra with the same files, and some others I am going to include more files for later.  

This is not for the faint of heart (or CPU) as these files are somewhat large.

I don't know if there's any point to it, but some people have wanted to see the performance and MIDI files and maybe it is helpful for analyzing VSL sounds/articulations.

 William, Thanks so much for making the scores, midi and VE files available. I think it makes demos so much more useful in that it enables VSL beginners like me not only to admire the music but also to gain a better understanding of how certain sounds were achieved. I hope other contributors will be encouraged to do the same. 

I'm glad that is helpful.

I agree that the MIDI files and articulations should be right out here.  Otherwise, what is the point to putting on a demo here?  

Though it is difficult to keep track of some files.  I actually lost the MIR files, which is why I didn't post them.  But with MIR, that isn't a problem since it is so incredibly easy to use you don't have to be overly concerned about getting the exact settings and tweaks.  Almost everything in MIR sounds awesome out of the box.  Which of course, is the idea of the software.   

William, I just read about your symphony in another thread and purchased it from CD Baby.  Congratulations on completing a large form piece such as this with VSL.  This must have been a tremendous amount of work. I very much look forward to listening to it soon.  

Earlier in this thread there is mention of a score?  Is a pdf score of this available?

Thanks,

Greg

Greg, thanks for writing - there will be a pdf score on SMP press shortly - actually in a couple days. It has taken a long time to get player's parts done but the fullscore is completed. It is scheduled to be released on this page -

Kersten sheet music

Also, oddly enough I recently did a new recording which uses almost all VSL instruments. I was doing an experiment with a massive amount of layering. I am still working on the mix for it but am going to put it out in some form.

Thanks William.  I'll keep an eye out for the score. 

Did you score this first before realizing it with VSL?

Yes Greg it was originally written in score, then later sequenced.  I first did a MIDI performance with Miroslav Vitous samples, a long time ago, then later recorded it with VSL. 

Here is the full score -

Romantic Symphony

Hi William,

I really love this symphony. One of my favorites of your compositions. I just bought a copy of the score, I already own the CD purchased from CD baby. 

Paul

Thanks Paul I appreciate it.