"On the other hand, technical skill enables a composer to express what is required for the film more easily.
I think, Hans Zimmer is a good film-composer for the energy, the drive and - yes - also for the emotion that his tracks contribute to films, but if he knew more techniques of expression than string staccati and swelling string carpets (sorry Hans! Only metaphorically speaking - I know I´m being unfair here) he could be much better.
" I think I agree with this... technique is a tool. Assuming that Hans needed more technique to improve his music, it is okay... but I dont know really if he would compose the same again... it is hard to determine. I personally like popular music, I enjoy sometimes doing and listening simple stuff, loving it in the way it is... sometimes I listen Wagner, Beethoven, JS Bach, etc... I think the music is something to love, not to hate (yes it is a bit cliche, but what I mean is that we waste a lot of time talking about what we dont like instead of the opposite). ps: sorry my English, I am not a native speaker. ps: how do you separate paragraphs?, I cant do that!... rgds :)
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william - it wasn't an intellectual appraisal, I just found that the music made me feel emotional and heavily involved while I was watching the film, when I was ignoring it. it was a subconscious effect it had on me. If you found it painful to listen to then that was your experience, but this is subjective. It can't be that I'm 'terrified of silence'. I like peace and quiet.
Listened to on its own I found the music to have some quite effective chord changes, and it makes a nice atmopshere but yes it's a bit boring and repetitive. All I can say is, for me, when watching the film, it did its job very well. It's subjective maybe, or maybe you just can't hear its good qualities because of your tastes and prejudices.
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@Donethur said:
I think the music is something to love, not to hateI agree with you there.
Maybe more than anything it is the universality of Zimmer now that is irritating to me. Like having that same stuff shoved down your throat over and over, as if it's better than anything else when there are many guys as good or better who don't get the time of day. That is what gets me...
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@Donethur said:
Friendly question: do you think this is not emotional? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0kGAz6HYM8 question 2: do you think this is not original? (talking about imagination). IMO it is a very dramatic piece and I havent heard something like this (sorry if there was something similar and I havent heard it yet). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imamcajBEJs&feature=related rgds :)Dramatic? Ok then. That's great if you're just a member of the audience and a musical moron at the same time. Haven't seen the film but the music is just the same. Chord, chord, chord chord etc with no real justification about anything. It's about as dramatic as my asshole during a fizzy fit of gastro enteritis. I get worried about chords that people think are marvellous. I can write chords. But I can't write this.
master of minimilsm in film is Bernard Herrmann. But what you have to understand is that Herrmann defines minimilism in film. Psycho is minimilism. Chord chord chord chord fucking chord is just that, A collection of chords played on a synthesizer and idiot children think it's great because they're idiot chidren with no education or imagination. And that's great because why frighten musical morons with something difficult.I have very little interest in films today. Last night I watched Fallen Angel from 1945. Ever seen that? Know who did the score? It's not a great score and film noir can be weird but you may as well listen to Raksin as anyone else writing for film today. Most people today would s h i t themselves if they sat next to someone who can actually play an instrument really well. People walking the street with day jobs are better players than most of the bozos who write for film. You need to understand that. I know children aged 12 that play keyboards in the way that guys like Hans Z can only dream of.
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@ Donethur:
Set the Field "Content Editor" in your user profile (Register "Communication") to "Enhanced" instead of "plain text". This enables you to write paragraphs.
And If I my quote you:
...music is something to love, not to hate.
Well said, I agree 100%.
This is something we all should keep in mind. No matter which particular composer we prefer.
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Paul, do you have better tracks than Zimmer?, can I hear one of those?, that would be interesting to hear. On the other hand, I think if you are insulting other people and cant maintain a adult conversation, I wont deal with you discussing about music, thoughts or other topic. At least not with that attittude. Rgds
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@Donethur said:
Paul, do you have better tracks than Zimmer?, can I hear one of those?, that would be interesting to hear.Here's one of his that's better than Zimmer. I've heard others of his. Though Paul wouldn't say that and is actually rather modest about his compositions and mainly claims to be a pianist, he is actually a very good composer.
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The track sounds pretty good as a 60s/70s Americana pastiche, but it's a bit corny and cheesy.
If you honestly believe that this is better than Zimmer's Inception soundtrack then, well, the polite thing to say is that it's a matter of personal taste. A more honest thing to say is that maybe you're actually just a bit old and stuck in the past.
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The thing is boys - you need to get your heads from right out of your fucking a s s holes. I can take honesty. Can you?
If you honestly think that you're going to get anywhere trying to sound like Hans then you're in for a vey long hobby program. You wanted to hear something better than fucking bull and I put up Vertigo. You just don't get it. You're morons and so predictable. You're like like all these little kids today.
No sense of history. Can't take criticism - even though it's doing you good. Can't stand it when someone tells you anything you don't agree with because you're immature. Had no musical education. Fuck me - my cat can play better than most of you when he's running up and down the keyboard. In fact - there's an American cat on Youtube that plays better than most of you people!
Are you two f u c kers friends of Trevor!
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PaulR - Is this directed at me? I don't sound anything like Hans as it happens. In fact, my ideal form of music is actually late 60s pop - harmonies, twangy guitars and baroque overtones. I got into instrumental/orchestral music because that's what paid the bills when I got into library music. I've quite got to like it now though, and I'm going to have a go at writing an orchestral symphony next year. It might be no good, but we'll see. I've written for and recorded a lot of live string and choir sessions in the last few years so I've developed some scoring chops.
And as for no sense of history - I've studied my baroque counterpoints, early music, choral religious music, Bulgarian choral music. I'm no dope.
Anyway maybe your comment has nothing to do with me, lol. It doesn't exactly read like it's a response to anything I've said so maybe you're talking to someone else? Ho ho.
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that's a bit mean donethur.
all this does make you wonder though. is this whole debate just a generational thing? a paradigm shift? like when reggae replaced rock in Africa in the 70s (I knew a very angry Nigerian who was put out of work by reggae, seriously). When Elvis replaced Bing Crosby. The Beatles replaced Elvis. Like when Einstein (Zimmer), replaced Newton (Herrmann). Ho ho, just my little joke.
I remember reading one of Plato's books (might have been the Republic) where an old guy was complaining about the younger degenerates who didn't remember the old ways and didn't have the respect they did. This was written in 380 BC, which kind of makes it look like generational shifts have always been there, rather than the possibility that we have indeed been degenerating consistently since the dawn of time.
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sorry dagmarpiano, I couldnt avoid that, but I am always kidding in my normal life :) (well, I use to respond insults with jokes). In my real thought, I dont have nothing against old or new stuff. I am not old but not young, but I think the main thing is what I have reflected through the years... I now have a very clear picture about what is art for me, after study a lot of artistic manifestations and learn from great artist (painters, etc). Sometimes, people want to feel they are superior to others, so use music, art, science, dress, etc., to increase their self esteem (most of them belong to a social group like hip hopers, etc). When they surpass that step in their lifes, they realise that they become a bit "ubermensch", with their own convictions and own way of thinking, not influenced for the rest. That is why some artists after composing complex stuff, become to be interested in simple stuff, they finally understand that hidden taste that they never seen before. But this happens only when people becomes mature internally (not only age). I dont say that every person should listen folk or popular or simple music, i am not saying that all of them will end like that, other could start to listen more complex music, I just say that you notice something strange when the argument becomes insult, when you see signatures demostrating superiority, arrogancy, etc... you start to suspect that something is wrong here (sorry my English again, it is a nightmare to me to write thoughts in other language). About the generational thing, IMO you are correct, this is similar... I think the Zimmer`s fans will have the same discussions with the future music´s fans. Of course, technique would not be the argument, but maybe "sonority" "ideas" "expression" "too much noise" too much electronic sounds", etc...
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@PaulR said:
In fact - there's an American cat on Youtube that plays better than most of you people!
I find that hard to believe. An American cat?
All the best.
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I wish Billy wouldn't do that. Being English I suffer from any kind of exposure and that causes a great deal of embarrassment. And besides, that was done years ago and I still have trouble making samples sound any good. I prefer photography. BUT - none of you younger imbeciles know what constitutes art or a good film or a good score. You HAVE to have a benchmark. You CANNOT have HZ as your benchmark and expect to LIVE!
You cretins seem to be under the impression that just because you like something then it must be GOOD! Wow - that's a serious criteria. I like it - so IT MUST BE GOOD!
telling me you're a better player than this, then your'e a godamn liar!I would put off playing bubonic plague roulette this weekend to hear about the late 60's.!!! Especially from anyone born 3 hours ago. Yeah!
Someone fetch Trevor!!!
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Anyways, the piece that William linked to was indeed very beautiful, and although I lack the knowledge and skills necessary to compose something like that myself, I can tell that you are quite skilled.
That's kind and also irrevlevant to this thread and unforgivable of William actually. But I could teach you to do that stuff in 10 minutes if you're a good player.
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I would have just one thing to request
@Donethur said:
that is why I wont discuss about musical terms to talk about subjective conceptsPlease refer to this article which shows exactly how many composers have deliberately brought the audience to catharsis through definite use of skillful composing, in other words, they knew what made music interesting. http://www.brainmusic.org/MBB91%20Webpage/Sloboda_1991.pdf
The article details the methods used especially appogiatura. The Zimmer piece was great, I am going to go fire up my Vienna Symphonic Libraray and have a go at it! I can hardly wait to see if I can do better!