Hi Dietz!

I didn't know about Todd AO but if I mentionned them it was to avoid mentionning Altiverb.

I have always and ever been a big VSL Fan. MIR was for me a great tool for one of my project. But a felow composer once showed me how to setup Altiverb and I had to admit the color (using Todd AO) was (is) much better.

The first thing I did when MIR PRO came out was to try different settings (mics, EQ) to get a great color but it was not as good...I'm sorry to say so...

Despite this, I'd like the people reading this to know that MIR is great...no INCREDIBLE! The tool is now much better now being linked to VE pro using network. Soundwise it's much more a matter of taste than anything else!

@Ramu said:

Hi Dietz!

I didn't know about Todd AO but if I mentionned them it was to avoid mentionning Altiverb.

I have always and ever been a big VSL Fan. MIR was for me a great tool for one of my project. But a felow composer once showed me how to setup Altiverb and I had to admit the color (using Todd AO) was (is) much better.

The first thing I did when MIR PRO came out was to try different settings (mics, EQ) to get a great color but it was not as good...I'm sorry to say so...

Despite this, I'd like the people reading this to know that MIR is great...no INCREDIBLE! The tool is now much better now being linked to VE pro using network. Soundwise it's much more a matter of taste than anything else!

The colour of Todd AO was certainly different from some other studios, but I don't think it was better. Certainly there are real problems with the Altiverb sampling of this once great studio that none of the MIR rooms suffer from. Have you tried the Teldex in MIR? This has a nice colour as well. Perhaps not as dark as Todd, but actually more usable to my ears.

DG

Hi everybody,

I've been using VSL:SE for quite some time now since summer 2007, but I've never posted anything to this excellent board, so I guess first thing should be a friendly "Hi!" to everybody and a big warm "thank you" to all at VSL for creating this amazing software.

I'm not a pro, and I only use VSL:SE as a hobby project, but nevertheless I enjoy working with it very much.

When I read about MIR PRO I was curious to learn more about it, but I was not sure if my machine could handle it (i7 CP 930 @2,8Ghz with only 12 Gigs of RAM), but so far, my demo is working just fine (I don't have that many tracks, though, just about 20-24 tracks / instruments usually).

What can I say? I'm blown away, it's an amazing piece of software, very easy to use, and it sounds great even with just the one demo-licence-roompack.

I was seriously thinking about buying Vienna Suite soon, but now I think I should just invest a little bit more money and buy VE PRO 5 / MIR (bundle) and get Vienna Suite later.

Like I said, I'm not a pro, but in my opinion, it's definitely worth its money.

Greetings from Bremen, Germany,
Michael

Hey!

Yes I did try and was about to get something quite close to what I like. Actually, what do I like?

Sample libraries have a dry recording. VSL is one of the most dry ever :) It is great so you can tweak the sound as much as you want. But without a good reverb and knowledge in audio engineering it's quite complicated. When MIR came out I saw it as my solution for all the troubles I had and truly IT IS! I spent 1 day setting up my VSL orchestra and wrote  60 minutes of music straight without touching anything. Perfect!

Then...This friend of mine came and tried to tweak the settings...with every venues from MIR. It sounded already better! I was amazed. Finally he told me, "why don't you try Altiverb to check if you like it better?". I argued a lot talking about the space MIR has and how fast I can get it. He plugged 4 altiverb (Todd AO), made some presets of his and played the same music. I was blown away...The sound was not as spacious as MIR, that is for sure but the color was so much...alive! Everything was blended into a perfect warm sound, something I like a lot.

Today, more and more libraries come with their own IR and positionning. It bothers me because I feel that if I buy strings from a different company than brass then the 2 won't sound in the same room because of positioning presets and reverb but I have to admit, when you listen to the samples into their own reverb it sounds just incredible...

A suggestion would be to get from VSL orchestra presets (positionning, EQ, premix) for each room...

@Jacen said:

When I read about MIR PRO I was curious to learn more about it, but I was not sure if my machine could handle it (i7 CP 930 @2,8Ghz with only 12 Gigs of RAM), but so far, my demo is working just fine (I don't have that many tracks, though, just about 20-24 tracks / instruments usually).

It will work perfectly!

@Errikos said:

Hey Dietz, are any of the MIR audio demos straight outputs of raw VI sequences through the software, so that one can hear what MIR sounds like reverberating the almost unechoic VSL instruments on its absolute own, free of any other plug-in/parametric adjustments? [And I mean other than the single snare-drum or Paul's voice used in the video examples] [...]

The closest thing to "raw material" we have to offer right now are the so-called Venue Previews. These are simple, standardised musical phrases for every Main Microphone position in every Venue. They are both available in MIR Pro's Venue Selection dialog as well as online from the MIR RoomPacks' sub-sites.

... of course these Previews are just meant to give an approximative idea of what to expect from a certain Venue - they can't do full justice to its sonic potential. And I have to admit that they are made with "legacy" Vienna MIR [A], so they might sound even better nowadays (... sorry, haven't found the time to re-do them).

Please find them here:

Venue Previews - RoomPack 1: Vienna Konzerthaus (a.k.a. Standard RoomPack)

Venue Previews - RoomPack 2: Studios & Sound Stages

Venue Previews - RoomPack 3:  Mystic Spaces

The idea of having a raw "MIR-only" mix for demo purposes might sound enticing, but I'm sure they would just provoke a new thread of comments on _how bad_ VSL demos sound. 😛 ... you know, not many people like to eat their cakes without sugar.

Kind regards,

PS ... I should add that there is nothing like "the sound" for a Venue. A simple change of MIR's Main Microphone setup and/or Reverb Time will lead to a  (maybe even radically) different sonic impression.

@Ramu said:

This friend of mine came and tried to tweak the settings...with every venues from MIR. It sounded already better!

This is not my experience at all.  I have Altiverb, used it for years, know the Todd AO sound and do not like it.   Altiverb does not even approach MIR.   You must understand something about ALtiverb - it is extremely limited compared to MIR, not the reverse.  Altiverb offers a lot of venues, but they are all only a few impulses sampled.  Those are then tweaked to fake the movement of sound sources around the stage.  This has nothing to do with MIR which has hundreds of sample impulses for just one venue and allows total realism of placing a sound source within a space. 

ALtiverb does not do convolution correctly for orchestral use.  Because the first thing that must be done is to have multiple sound sources with one microphone placement.  That is what MIR does.  Altiverb is the reverse.  It has multiple miking with one sound source on almost all the impulses that were sampled.  So you must FAKE the differential placement of the instruments.   It is mainly useful for film sound FX because of its many different locales - such as an aircraft hanger, etc.  Though of course, yes,  a good engineer can make it sound great.   A good engineer could probably blow you away with a $200 hardware reverb box because he knows the tricks.    But the idea behind MIR is to create a reverb as well as sound environment that is designed specifically for orchestral sound and can be used by musicians themselves to create a great mix.  It actually can do that which is pretty amazing. 

I am not debating the good of MIR, it is a really great tool and much more sophisticated and polished than any reverb out there. I'm just making a point about sound. You can explain to me every aspects that are better in MIR it won't change the sound...

Once again, MIR is great and combine with VE Pro it is the best tool ever for reverb...

I'm sure that if I post 2 waves without naming the reverb this could be endless as it is a matter of taste :)

I insist to VSL team, if they could come up with some presets like Izotop does for Ozone 5 it would be amazing!

@Dietz said:

PS ... I should add that there is nothing like "the sound" for a Venue. A simple change of MIR's Main Microphone setup and/or Reverb Time will lead to a  (maybe even radically) different sonic impression.

Well, I guess it's the venues...

@Dietz said:

Let's repeat all together:

MIR.

Is.

NOT!

Just.

Another.

Reverb.

;-D

[...]

:D

MIR.

Is.

NOT!

Just.

Another.

Reverb.

Thanks for the links Goran and Dietz; I did get an idea - if vague - of what straight passes of VI samples into MIR should sound like. It's useful to know how much more sugar I should be expected to add to the cake...

As far as the "MIR-only" demo mixes and how that could lead to "how bad VSL demos sound" comments, I prefer it when a company allows one to guess what their products sound like 'right out of the box' - something that some less effective demos here afford, rather than just flaunt 2-3 master programmers' achievements, thereby making me suspicious and curious as to what MY mix will sound like, at least initially. The instruments' demos over the years have been very informative in that regard, in that the programming skills of the many users that have been allowed to submit their tracks have been disparate enough for one to gauge both the raw, as well as the potential, qualities of the VSL.

Further, I have to tell all those people who rave about EW's, Spitfire's, and other libraries' realism over VSL's, that their repertoire gamut is exhausted somewhere between the soundtracks of Batman and Inception and the latest adolescent-vampire/sword-fought-battles trailers crap. 

Find me La Mer, Pictures, and The Rite demos from other companies' products, and let's compare them to the ones here. Who knows? You maybe right, but you're not going to prove it by citing orchestral examples such as the typical generic cloned drones that (dis)grace the demo pages of most other sample libraries.

Let's have some EW Brahms! And while we're at it in terms of realism, let's throw some rival companies' chamber music offerings for good measure... (pun intended)

Ozone? I mean, I'm comparing this to a TC6000, or a 960L. Ozone? 

I have been critical of the sound of convolution reverb, which I still respectfully (very respectfully) think MIR does suffer from at the end of the day, but it does what it promises, it's *realism*. Caveat to that sentence: Just put another reverb on the tail - VSL's hybrid reverb, or one of the above or their stereo brethren should you be working in stereo like me - and voila. You really do have the best of both worlds.

The time saver in MIR, is truly a remarkable breakthrough that can't be spoken about enough. There is so much less work, for such a much better result. (now that it's for mac!) (did I say that before?) hehe :-P

Anyway, MIR is a mix engine for any studio even if they don't use VSL, IMO, and it's here to stay.

@mpower88 said:

Ozone? I mean, I'm comparing this to a TC6000, or a 960L. Ozone? 

I was talking about the presets Ozone provides for mastering...It is really helpful, not the reverb in Ozone, but of course 😊

@mpower88 said:

Ozone? I mean, I'm comparing this to a TC6000, or a 960L. Ozone? 

I have been critical of the sound of convolution reverb, which I still respectfully (very respectfully) think MIR does suffer from at the end of the day, but it does what it promises, it's *realism*. Caveat to that sentence: Just put another reverb on the tail - VSL's hybrid reverb, or one of the above or their stereo brethren should you be working in stereo like me - and voila. You really do have the best of both worlds.

The time saver in MIR, is truly a remarkable breakthrough that can't be spoken about enough. There is so much less work, for such a much better result. (now that it's for mac!) (did I say that before?) hehe 😛

Anyway, MIR is a mix engine for any studio even if they don't use VSL, IMO, and it's here to stay.

MIR Pro comes with the special integrated MIRacle plugin, which is a surround capable algorithmic reverb. No need to use the Vienna Suite Hybrid Reverb for sweetening. You can of course, but MIRacle has been designed for the purpose and is included in the package to begin with.

Yeah no offense to Ozone, it's great for what it is, but just saying...

@Animus said:

I bought it.  I think it is great and worth it.  But I think it's also too expensive.  :-)  They should take out all the stock venue impulses and make them all a la carte and make the MIR Pro engine cheaper.  That way you can buy what you want, and make it within range of more people's budgets..  I only really wanted the Teldex.

 1+

One thing I always think about impulse recordings is that they record empty halls, but all halls sound better when full, with people adding some sound absorption.

Of course, coughing, shuffling real people would be no use, so perhaps you should fill your halls with 2,000 rotting pig carcasses before the recordings? Or maybe not.

:) 

Most halls will sound different without audience, no doubt - but the most prestigous venues have taken precautions to minimize the effect. The chairs in Vienna Konzerthaus for example are equipped with upholstery on their lower surface, too, so they will act quite absorptive when folded up.

It isn't even an unanimously accepted "rule" that empty halls sound worse for orchestral recordings. See this recent discussion on Gearslutz, for example: - > http://www.gearslutz.com/board/6843340-post37.html

... food for thought ... ;-)