@Reality Check said:

delvagus - Scenario 1: I buy a piano from Steinway for a lot of money. I do not insure it. While moving house the piano is lost. I contact Steinway and tell them I have lost the piano and ask for a replacement. They offer nothing other than confirmation of registration of my piano and its serial number. Scenario 2: I buy a piano from Steinway for a lot of money. I do insure it. While moving house the piano is lost. I contact my insurer, they investigate and I get the piano replaced. Scenario 3: I buy a piano from Steinway for a lot of money. I do not insure it. While moving house the piano is lost. I contact Steinway and tell them I have lost the piano and ask for a replacement. They offer to provide you with a new piano that is exactly the same for 50% of list price. If you are to argue that a physical piano that is mine is not the same kind of thing as a physical dongle that is mine, I disagree. Scenarios 1 and 2 are realistic. Scenario 3 would take an extremely charitable company. Personally I am surprised and grateful that Scenario 3 might be possible with VSL, should I be in such a situation the future.

That's not a proper analogy.A proper analogy would be: You buy a Steinway piano that is locked with a key and Steinway only gives you one key to unlock your piano. One day you lose your key or it is stolen, and now you can no longer use your piano. You contact Steinway and they tell you, "Sorry you lost your key. We'll send you a new key for half the price you paid for your piano!" If Steinway did that they would be out of business in days!

VSL needs to protect their software from piracy, but they also need to protect their customers. The best way to do this would be to have the dongle contact VSL every 60 - 90 days and the user enter a unique password to verify that they are the original purchaser. After the password is verified the dongle would be good for another 60 - 90 days. This could be optional as some people who only use their software in their own studio my see it as a hassle. But for someone that is out gigging or traveling with their VSL products this would be great.

@mschmitt_25212 said:

VSL needs to protect their software from piracy, but they also need to protect their customers. The best way to do this would be to have the dongle contact VSL every 60 - 90 days and the user enter a unique password to verify that they are the original purchaser. After the password is verified the dongle would be good for another 60 - 90 days. This could be optional as some people who only use their software in their own studio my see it as a hassle. But for someone that is out gigging or traveling with their VSL products this would be great.

This is a good idea but you can say that your dongle was stolen and sell it to somebody else

THE solution :

Every 60-90 days, VSL check if the dongle is not reported as stolen,  If a dongle is reported as stolen, it is erased, the IP is given to the police.....

I have start to check for an insurance, the answer is  : your dongle will be re-emburse  but not it's contains because it is dematerialized

The insurance man was saying that what does VSL is not legal, and I should take an "Legal insurance" to be able to sue them if  lose my dongle

In France the law allow you to do a private copy of any dematerialized stuff like software, music you buy on line....... as you have bought a license to use the product you should be able to restore the product.

 This entire thread is wrong.

VSL is not unethical.  They are using industry standard copy protection.   This guy who wrote the thread is trying to attack that, by attacking VSL.

I find it irritating, because the company is a fine group of people who have created a tremendous artistic tool.  They should not be subjected to this kind of attack because it is inappropriate and wrong.

@William said:

  the company is a fine group of people who have created a tremendous artistic tool.  

I agree with you, but VSL have to improve there system of copy protection so in case of a lost, fire and steel you can recover your licenses

What is the law in Austria about demateralised things (software, Music you buy on Itunes, Samples.....) ? 

What is the law in your different countries ?

Are you allowed to do a private copy ?

As I said before in France the supplier has to offer a way to do it

Sony was condammed in France because there music could not be backup by the user and could only played on there player ? http://www.leparticulier.fr/jcms/c_42456/musique-sur-internet-sony-condamne-pour-tromperie (sorry it is in French)

Apple had to change there copy protection too ?

@Cyril said:

What is the law in your different countries ?

In the US I know you are allowed to bypass security on software you own if the company that made it has gone out of business. If the company is still around I don't know. Looks like it's time for us to contact our insurance companies and knowledgeable attorneys in each of our countries.

@William said:

 This entire thread is wrong.

VSL is not unethical.  They are using industry standard copy protection.   This guy who wrote the thread is trying to attack that, by attacking VSL.

I find it irritating, because the company is a fine group of people who have created a tremendous artistic tool.  They should not be subjected to this kind of attack because it is inappropriate and wrong.

@delavagus said:

What's so hard to understand about this? There are two separate issues here: (a) The policies; (b) VSL's willful (for it is willful!) refusal to take reasonable steps to ensure that their customers are informed about said policies.

What's hard for me to understand is VSL's motive behind this.  What would VSL gain by not informing their customers "about said policies."

Are you saying that VSL is purposely not informing customers about the dongle policy in the hopes that people will be careless with their dongles, lose or break them, then VSL can make extra $$$$ by charging the unfortunate customer to get his licences returned?  Is that what you are insinuating? 

I've never met the VSL team personally but, for some reason, I can't imagine Herb, Paul, Deitz, CM, Stefen, etc, all standing around a bubbling caldron perched on a large pentagram carpet rubbing their hands together letting out an evil laugh everytime a sucker, I mean, customer buys one of their products.  Then Herb stirs the caldron and says, "I'll get you my little pretty and your little dog Toto too.  Muha! Ha! Ha!" 

I don't know I'm just not seeing it Roger.  On the other hand Halloween is just around the corner. 

On my opinion most users will not think about the "worst case scenario". Like: "It will not happen often, so then don´t let it be me!"
I have seen further discussions about the dongle problem and I can not understand too why there is no pleasing way for us - the users.
So, if I bought VSL-Software for more then 10.000 bugs his destiny is attached to a little 30 bugs dongle.

I´m sad about the fact, that I do not have any chance to cover up my licenses. There is no insurence and I can not say that VSL is getting into it to give us,
the buyer of there products a conclusion where both sides can life with cause 50% of the know price isn´t one.

I was woundering why there is no eLicenser with a "mac-adress" like it is used for network-cards for example. An unique number and if the dongle then
gets lost/destroyed you buy a know dongle and change the "mac-adress" on the VSL-Website.
All you would need is an internet-connection in a period of time.
I´ve heard some argue that they don´t have internet on the PC where the dongle is connected, but what´s better?
Going down under your table some weeks in the year and pull the dongle in an internet-pc or getting an heart-attack from the lost!
And then the second one when you reached the mail from VSL that´s "only the half price" from what you´ve payed before now to get your project finished!

I´m a little disappointed that VSL doesn´t get into this discussion either in this threat nor in others before others cause all this replys shows that there is need for action.

regards

Torsten

Although i would not accuse VSL of being unethical  -- as they have, for me, in the last 5 years provided nothing but EXCEPTIONAL customer service to me  -- i DO think this whole "key/license" issue needs to be addressed in some manner.

If you care to refer to MY story  -- my EXTREMELY close call regarding the theft of my computer  ---  i did have a near miss with a catasrtophic nightmare and the near-loss of nearly $10,000 of my licenses.

Read HERE, if you care to:
http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/p/25480/185041.aspx#185041 

I would be delighted to see, somewhere in the future, some sort of time-based  re-authorization. Many people have decried this as to how "annoying" it would be to every 90 days have to re-log and re-authorize your key's licenses... But the time-cost of THAT is minimal compared to the immense loss if a key were to be stolen or lost.

Regardless, i am, to this day, content with VSL's customer service  ... maybe only because i escaped utter tragedy by the skin of my teeth. Still, i think it would be in the common interest of ALL VSL users for VSL to at least provide SOME sort of 2nd option regarding keeping our purchases secure.

@mplaster said:

 Many people have decried this as to how "annoying" it would be to every 90 days have to re-log and re-authorize your key's licenses... But the time-cost of THAT is minimal compared to the immense loss if a key were to be stolen or lost.

it is quite simple to check if your USB key has not be reported lost, stolen ... and disable to it, if is the case

It is up to VSL and Steinberg to do it (the eLC is Steinberg)

The oher solution is to be able to do a backup of your key, like French law is allowing

I am also very surprised that nobody form VSL is participating to the thread

What is that backup solution that French law allows for? Do you have a backup that in case you lose your key you can re-install your licences on a new key as if nothing happened?

I don't think that VSL does enough to make their policies obvious. I don't know if it is intentional or not. If it is, then that is a problem. However, there is enough information about this on the web that one should be performing a bit of research before spending thousands of dollars here. 

With that said, I do not agree with the lost key policies, but I also do not believe that people should be given freedom from responsibility. If your key was stolen, and there was a police report, that is one thing. If you lost it, it isn't VSL's fault. *You* lost it. 

I think a fair policy would be:

1. First time the key is lost, you pay for a new key, the cost of generating a new license (I'm assuming that Steinberg charges VSL per key generated), and reasonable "idiot" fee for having lost it. This fee should never exceed 25% of the original cost, at most. 

2. After that, you get one more shot. You pay for everything again, in full. Anything beyond a second time, no more VSL for you. 

The French law allows, but if VSL does not allow, they will be condamned by the French gov

@Cyril said:

The French law allows, but if VSL does not allow, they will be condamned by the French gov

Condamned Cyril !!!!!!  

And ex communicated too!!

@Cyril said:

The French law allows, but if VSL does not allow, they will be condamned by the French gov

Condamned Cyril !!!!!!  

And ex communicated too!!

LOL