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I agree that having a huge selection of string articulations, that one can instantly switch between, to achieve a high-degree of string playing realism, and in real time, is a very important feature, which then brings me to a simple question :
Why didn't VSL expand the articulations of their Appassionata Strings ?
Maybe VSL will eventually offer something like an Appassionata Strings Expander, that will make them a better tool for sophisticated scoring applications.
@noldar12 said:
Note: one of the things I would wish for would be articulations where the bow is left on the string after the note is played. A real player will often leave the bow on the string during very brief rests, as taking the bow off the string for a short period of time, and them putting it right back on the string is wasted motion. As long as the bow does not move, no sound will result.
This is one of the reasons that I say a sample library will always be a compromise. What you say it true for the Bass, and sometimes for the Cello, but for Violin and Viola it is only true in the upper part of the bow, and only under very specific conditions. No player would ever leave the bow on the strings during a rest anywhere else in the bow, because as both Violin and Viola rely on gravity acting on the bow, as well as pressure (bass and cello rely much more on bw pressure), to leave the bow on the string would create a horrible sound.
I still maintain that sample libraries could be more detailed, but most of that detail would only matter to specialists, and because of that may not be worthwhile to the developers.
DG
@muziksculp said:
Why didn't VSL expand the articulations of their Appassionata Strings ?
Maybe VSL will eventually offer something like an Appassionata Strings Expander, that will make them a better tool for sophisticated scoring applications.
Now this i do agree with. The App strings sounds great, but are pretty useless on their own for writing music. At the very least I need non or more accurately poco vibrato patches. Having said that, this is really the only thing that is wrong with the regular Orchestral strings. There are no molto vibrato patches, so the sound, at high dynamic level, is often anemic to my ears.
I guess the Orchestral Strings is such an old library that the sample player it was created for couldn't have coped with all these options. However, they do need to be updated to meet current expectations in a modern string library.
DG
DG, good points. I tend to think more about lower strings than upper strings. I also agree that for the most part the issue I raised probably does matter more to specialists, and is not really a viable economic option. I tend to think that an instrumentalist is generally most aware of the limitations of sample libraries for his or her own main instrument.
DG, a humorous side note: during college days I did have to take violin fundamentals as part of the music major track I was first pursuing. While I could play it somewhat, I tended to squash the tone of it something fierce as I was so used to all the pressure required for using a bass bow. Cello, OTOH, I did fairly well with, as the muscle movements for cello and bass are virtually identical (as I play French bow on the bass, I did not have to make an adjustment going from German bass bow to French cello bow).
@noldar12 said:
DG, a humorous side note: during college days I did have to take violin fundamentals as part of the music major track I was first pursuing. While I could play it somewhat, I tended to squash the tone of it something fierce as I was so used to all the pressure required for using a bass bow. Cello, OTOH, I did fairly well with, as the muscle movements for cello and bass are virtually identical (as I play French bow on the bass, I did not have to make an adjustment going from German bass bow to French cello bow).
I have also noodled on the Cello from time to time, and it is exactly the opposite for me. Everything I play sounds beautiful and flautando. There is no hint of passion or guts anywhere. I suppose all instruments have their drawbacks to the player. On the Bass and Cell you have to work quite hard to make a big sound. On the Violin and Viola it's quite easy, but holding the dratted instrument up with that ridiculous left hand position is a real bore...!
DG
Divisi = if you write 1 note, it goes to 1 player; 2 notes = 2 players etc.
Check out the Dimension Brass videos:)
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Divisi
dividing, temporary separation
Origin: 1730–40; < Italian, plural of 'diviso' divided, past participle of 'dividere' to divide
Divisi usually indicates a temporary dividing, however; in music, a divisi is commonly followed by an A Due , a coming back together.
________________________________
HTH,
The official definition from the Sean dictionary-
Divisi: the bomb-diggity, the great divide, the awe and wonder of the orchestra, and finally... what VSL users are desparately begging for.
Note: 'bomb-diggity' is another term to be added to the Dietz dictionary. (These are the times that I think that musicians are like the nerdiest, dorkiest, corniest, and coolest people on the planet. lol)
-Sean
First, you can't just use a solo violin multiple times. This results in a "phased" sound. That's complicated so I'll stay away from explaining that. But another problem is the fact that you have the same performer and the same violin playing everything. Although ideally it may sound like it would work, it doesn't. If you loaded 34 of the same violin to try and build a section you would get a sound that isn't very realistic.
If you have a full string section, but record it in a way that you can use an individual portion for divisi, then you can both have divisi and also use them all together for the lush sound of a full string section. This doesn't just provide realism in sound and in divisi-bility but also realism in being able to adjust the timing of each section to be slightly 'off'. The key to emulating human performance is imperfection. By adjusting muliple sections, or each instrument individually to start at slightly different times, one can control the 'loose' or 'tightness' of the performance. Composers may intentionally want an extremely loose performance. DVZ has developed a system that accomplishes these things very well. I would like to see something equal or superior from VSL and recorded with VSL quality in recording methods and performance.
But at very least, VSL users definitely want divisi and a Violin II. Doubling Violin I samples as a Violin II section comes with the same problems I mentioned before.
-Sean
The Solo strings would still have uses. First, as a simple solo instrument for solo passages. Second, as a 'first chair' performer. The first chair performer adds to the realism in more than one way. a) the position of a first chair player, with the solo sound in that place... this makes it sound more real as this is your strongest performer and having this sound come through now and then adds to that realism. b) The 'sound coming through' part is especially true, but not just as a first chair. I use the cello and bass solo's all the time to have more dymanic change in a phrase. A little less unified, less in tune, looser timed- for a moment now and then where it adds to the performance or adds some imperfection.
This may sound a little redundant, it's hard to word how I view it from my own template. I have solo, chamber, orchestral, and app (what I own of them anyway) loaded at all times. I actually have everything I own from VSL loaded at all times. This way I can create the most fluid performance possible, the most controllable, and the most realistic.
Another support for the need of divisi... many of us do these things, BUT divisi would certainly save a LOT of time in this regard. Much less time for much more realism. The more I talk about it the more I can't wait! [:'(]
-Sean
Vincent, by using that trick, you are actually using a different sample... for example, the samples for D4 and D#4 (with the trick, sounding as D4). By using a slightly different EQ or some other technique, in addition to different panning the II violins can then be made to sound slightly different from the I violins. Not ideal, but it certainly works. Overall, the issue of II violins comes up from time to time, but based on VSL's responses, the creation of a II violin section seems highly unlikely.
As for solo strings, in addition to "first chair" there is still the world of string quartets, piano trios, solo concertos, and all other sorts of solos, sonatas, and chamber music where solo instruments are called for: septets, octets, etc.
@noldar12 said:
Not ideal, but it certainly works. Overall, the issue of II violins comes up from time to time, but based on VSL's responses, the creation of a II violin section seems highly unlikely.
No offense, but I think you're way off on this point. First, it's not just 'not ideal', but it isn't even as workable as people suggest. A cheat is still nothing but a cheat, and with it comes problems. Timbre and player performance, even in sections, is still something noticable. Finer ears hear problems with such 'cheating' methods.
The main reason why though, may not even be for it's uses but simply the high demand. Everyone is begging for divisi and Violin II. If VSL indeed comes out with a new string library, I can assure you that I myself would not buy it if those two requirements were not met. Most other users would probably agree. Why buy new if we already have the same 'limited' supply right now? If VSL comes out with a new library, and a divisi one at that... it most certainly will need a Violin II to please users. Not to mention, it would be highly un-competing to say 'Wow EW, nice... you have divisi and the like..... yeah, but we'll stick with our limited playback abilities'. There's no logic behind that if VSL is trying to make money at all.
-Sean
Obviously what I say means nothing because I don't work for nor have any inside knowledge of VSL, however I will say this. There is absolutely no way you could convince me in any way that VSL hasn't already thought about what you're saying about Divisi strings. There is just no one who could convince me that they would waste their time recording unbelievable amounts of hours of recording time with so many string players and decide to ignore the few key things they left out last time. They like you and me learn from experiences and when have they not always come through with something that is breaking the walls down on other companies? VE Pro first did it, then VI Pro is just astounding. There is no other word for it, Kontakt doesn't even touch VI Pro. Nothing I use does. It completely brought life back into every VSL sample I own and made me much more efficient and professional sounding with minimal learning curve. Look at MIR. Look at the new Divisi Brass! Is this not a clue they are listening, learning and keeping up with the times? The problem is you're most likely not going to hear anything about them or when they will be released. They could be ready next month, or maybe they are still "making an outline" of things they need to accomplish. Everything is speculation at this point but don't think for one second that they will allow themselves to drop their reputation and just "stick it to their users" and let other companies take over the entire market.
So many people complain (including I myself used to) that VSL strings are so hard to make sound real and to give proper space. I like many got so dam brain washed and obsessed with that idea that I actually started believing it. Now a days I take a recording of a piece I love and it takes absolutely no time what so ever to get that same string sound or so close that any non-super-critical ear would believe they are the same. Sure it took getting over the learning curve but now I can make a sound almost anyone would love from scratch within 60 seconds. I can load some samples, change settings and add a couple effects in less then 60 seconds guarenteed that are aww inspiring in sound and great for atleast laying down a workable track that can be further worked later.
All the other libraries I own sound beautiful out of the box but are so washed in reverb that I am finding now the better I get at this, the more UNUSEFUL those samples are. There are only so many places you can use massive string sections drowned in reverb I don't care how good they sound when you are plunking chords in realtime. They are sloppy, slow responding and minimally useful for anything other then layering here and there. I suppose for writing video game music they are great, but for true music they really limit you and lock you into one sound. Just last night, I was layering a bunch of strings (not mentioning the competitors) and as I was enabling tracks and disabling tracks I finally said oh hell yes that's the stuff right there!! I had told myself sure enough, these 3 companies go amazing together. It was then, that I looked up and realized I had messed up and not actually had the competitors going at all. What I had was VSL chamber blended with VSL solo strings with a pinch of orchestral just to increase the section size when increasing the velocity xfade (but only a small amount). I played a live performance CD and my strings were so accurate with the real recording that I don't care how good you think you are, I have perfect pitch and those strings belnded so perfectly into the recording that I had to stop playing because I didn't believe my samples were working. It was scary accurate. Hearing the difference with their new Divisi Brass section, I can't imagine what their Divisi Strings would sound like when they are done.
I am every bit as excited as you trust me lol. I try not to think of it because if I do, it will just create a reason to have an excuse that attempts to justify why it is I can't do something. I can simply blame VSL for something that is already achievable, just takes a little effort. So when are those strings coming out :P :).
Maestro2be
