$19k for a brass library? Are you kidding me!? I don't care HOW good a library can be, there is a point in cost where it would be better to record your own brass performances, even if it isn't in Air Studios. Even then, VSL's brass is so well done, that the Spitfire demo did not impress me any more than VSL's product.

The Spitfire demo's showcase some great stuff, but 1- There were only certain things better than VSL, plenty of it was equal or worse. Each has an advantage. 2- For the cost, I'd stick with VSL and get a more flexible (dry) library. Even if money wasn't a factor, Spitfire wasn't so impressive to say it was better than VSL, imo anyway.

-Sean

Having been a trained classical bassist, I continue to be - at least somewhat - amazed by various requests, and the dominance of a "Hollywood sound" in those requests (granted scoring for film is one of the major means of potentially earning money).

Looking at LASS, among others, while it does section divisi well, its limited articulations in no way reflects what a real player can do with a bow.  One may gain realistic divisi, but end up losing a far greater degree of realism with the severely limited articulations.

IMO, it is of far greater importance to learn to write string parts that are nuanced in ways players would play them, than to have "perfect" divisi.  For traditional two part divisi, the resources already exist within VSL to do that fairly well: layer orchestral and chamber strings for the orchestral string sections, and when divisi is needed, play one note using orchestral strings, and the other using chamber strings - not perfect, but still a good alternative. 

I really agree with Beat. 

To my ear, VSL's strings come the closest to the sound of a real orchestral string section.  Are they perfect?  No.  But comparing them to various competitors, VSL comes far closer.  Note: one of the things I would wish for would be articulations where the bow is left on the string after the note is played.  A real player will often leave the bow on the string during very brief rests, as taking the bow off the string for a short period of time, and them putting it right back on the string is wasted motion.  As long as the bow does not move, no sound will result.

Now would Dimension Strings be a good thing?  Most likely, yes - provided it contains a full range of articulations, and/or does not introduce other major compromises. 

I agree that having a huge selection of string articulations, that one can instantly switch between, to achieve a high-degree of string playing realism, and in real time, is a very important feature, which then brings me to a simple question :

Why didn't VSL expand the articulations of their Appassionata Strings ? 

Maybe VSL will eventually offer something like an Appassionata Strings Expander, that will make them a better tool for sophisticated scoring applications.

@noldar12 said:

Note: one of the things I would wish for would be articulations where the bow is left on the string after the note is played.  A real player will often leave the bow on the string during very brief rests, as taking the bow off the string for a short period of time, and them putting it right back on the string is wasted motion.  As long as the bow does not move, no sound will result.

This is one of the reasons that I say a sample library will always be a compromise. What you say it true for the Bass, and sometimes for the Cello, but for Violin and Viola it is only true in the upper part of the bow, and only under very specific conditions. No player would ever leave the bow on the strings during a rest anywhere else in the bow, because as both Violin and Viola rely on gravity acting on the bow, as well as pressure (bass and cello rely much more on bw pressure), to leave the bow on the string would create a horrible sound.

I still maintain that sample libraries could be more detailed, but most of that detail would only matter to specialists, and because of that may not be worthwhile to the developers.

DG

@muziksculp said:

Why didn't VSL expand the articulations of their Appassionata Strings ? 

Maybe VSL will eventually offer something like an Appassionata Strings Expander, that will make them a better tool for sophisticated scoring applications.

Now this i do agree with. The App strings sounds great, but are pretty useless on their own for writing music. At the very least I need non or more accurately poco vibrato patches. Having said that, this is really the only thing that is wrong with the regular Orchestral strings. There are no molto vibrato patches, so the sound, at high dynamic level, is often anemic to my ears.

I guess the Orchestral Strings is such an old library that the sample player it was created for couldn't have coped with all these options. However, they do need to be updated to meet current expectations in a modern string library.

DG

DG, good points.  I tend to think more about lower strings than upper strings.  I also agree that for the most part the issue I raised probably does matter more to specialists, and is not really a viable economic option.  I tend to think that an instrumentalist is generally most aware of the limitations of sample libraries for his or her own main instrument.

DG, a humorous side note: during college days I did have to take violin fundamentals as part of the music major track I was first pursuing.  While I could play it somewhat, I tended to squash the tone of it something fierce as I was so used to all the pressure required for using a bass bow.  Cello, OTOH, I did fairly well with, as the muscle movements for cello and bass are virtually identical (as I play French bow on the bass, I did not have to make an adjustment going from German bass bow to French cello bow).

@noldar12 said:

DG, a humorous side note: during college days I did have to take violin fundamentals as part of the music major track I was first pursuing.  While I could play it somewhat, I tended to squash the tone of it something fierce as I was so used to all the pressure required for using a bass bow.  Cello, OTOH, I did fairly well with, as the muscle movements for cello and bass are virtually identical (as I play French bow on the bass, I did not have to make an adjustment going from German bass bow to French cello bow).

I have also noodled on the Cello from time to time, and it is exactly the opposite for me. Everything I play sounds beautiful and flautando. There is no hint of passion or guts anywhere. I suppose all instruments have their drawbacks to the player. On the Bass and Cell you have to work quite hard to make a big sound. On the Violin and Viola it's quite easy, but holding the dratted instrument up with that ridiculous left hand position is a real bore...!

DG

[Note to myself: "Dratted" is a word. 8-) ...]

DG, LOL on the left hand position on violin and viola... soooo true, and having that little finger resting on top of the bow.  Of course, it is exactly the reverse humor for violinists and violists having to learn cello and bass fundamentals.

Divisi = if you write 1 note, it goes to 1 player; 2 notes = 2 players etc.

Check out the Dimension Brass videos:)

________________________________

Divisi

dividing, temporary separation

Origin: 1730–40; < Italian, plural of 'diviso' divided, past participle of 'dividere' to divide

Divisi usually indicates a temporary dividing, however; in music, a divisi is commonly followed by an A Due , a coming back together.

________________________________

HTH,

The official definition from the Sean dictionary-

Divisi: the bomb-diggity, the great divide, the awe and wonder of the orchestra, and finally... what VSL users are desparately begging for.

Note: 'bomb-diggity' is another term to be added to the Dietz dictionary. (These are the times that I think that musicians are like the nerdiest, dorkiest, corniest, and coolest people on the planet. lol)

-Sean

Oh, and I forgot to mention... I've played the cello a bit (a LONG time ago in a...) and recently I've purchased a violin and started to play a bit. Yeah, a lot more work for the cello to get the same effect, imo anyway.

-Sean

First, you can't just use a solo violin multiple times. This results in a "phased" sound. That's complicated so I'll stay away from explaining that. But another problem is the fact that you have the same performer and the same violin playing everything. Although ideally it may sound like it would work, it doesn't. If you loaded 34 of the same violin to try and build a section you would get a sound that isn't very realistic.

If you have a full string section, but record it in a way that you can use an individual portion for divisi, then you can both have divisi and also use them all together for the lush sound of a full string section. This doesn't just provide realism in sound and in divisi-bility but also realism in being able to adjust the timing of each section to be slightly 'off'. The key to emulating human performance is imperfection. By adjusting muliple sections, or each instrument individually to start at slightly different times, one can control the 'loose' or 'tightness' of the performance. Composers may intentionally want an extremely loose performance. DVZ has developed a system that accomplishes these things very well. I would like to see something equal or superior from VSL and recorded with VSL quality in recording methods and performance.

But at very least, VSL users definitely want divisi and a Violin II. Doubling Violin I samples as a Violin II section comes with the same problems I mentioned before.

-Sean

The Solo strings would still have uses. First, as a simple solo instrument for solo passages. Second, as a 'first chair' performer. The first chair performer adds to the realism in more than one way. a) the position of a first chair player, with the solo sound in that place... this makes it sound more real as this is your strongest performer and having this sound come through now and then adds to that realism. b) The 'sound coming through' part is especially true, but not just as a first chair. I use the cello and bass solo's all the time to have more dymanic change in a phrase. A little less unified, less in tune, looser timed- for a moment now and then where it adds to the performance or adds some imperfection.

This may sound a little redundant, it's hard to word how I view it from my own template. I have solo, chamber, orchestral, and app (what I own of them anyway) loaded at all times. I actually have everything I own from VSL loaded at all times. This way I can create the most fluid performance possible, the most controllable, and the most realistic.

Another support for the need of divisi... many of us do these things, BUT divisi would certainly save a LOT of time in this regard. Much less time for much more realism. The more I talk about it the more I can't wait! [:'(]

-Sean

Vincent, by using that trick, you are actually using a different sample... for example, the samples for D4 and D#4 (with the trick, sounding as D4).  By using a slightly different EQ or some other technique, in addition to different panning the II violins can then be made to sound slightly different from the I violins.  Not ideal, but it certainly works.  Overall, the issue of II violins comes up from time to time, but based on VSL's responses, the creation of a II violin section seems highly unlikely.

As for solo strings, in addition to "first chair" there is still the world of string quartets, piano trios, solo concertos, and all other sorts of solos, sonatas, and chamber music where solo instruments are called for: septets, octets, etc.