Hi Guys,  Well, as the guy who started this thread (which was basically a continuation of the Zimmer thread that Dietz axed) I'm fascinated by it.  Almost every time someone makes a highly subjective point (or rant), someone else responds with equal vitriol.  Then the gloves come off and feathers fly.  But I'm impressed with the effort made to back off a little, and get back to music.  I think it can be fun debating the merits of film score and other composers, but the personal attacks and insults are tedious.  So now there's some composer's music that I want to check out-- that of John Cage, Bernard Hermann, William and Mike.                Cheers,  Tom 

@mikezaz_27157 said:

Well first off, you didn't tell me who Trevor was! :) 

Trevor's like you. He's a Genius!!!!

Now you'll have to excuse me because since you joined this conversation I find that I've almost run out of morphine here.

@William said:

I admit I know little about John Cage - who would study someone who does a composition where a player walks onto a stage and does nothing but open the lid of a piano?   That was John Cage wasn't it?    Or am I "ignorant" again? 

It actually gets worse. 4'.33" was such a triumph that Cage decided to follow it up with a sequel, 0'.0" (I'm serious; I'll let Mike fill in the details)...

I must admit, I had never heard of John Cage until his name was mentioned on this thread (somebody with a similar style was mentioned back in school.  Maybe they were talking about Cage).

I looked him up and listened to a few of his selections. 

Gentlemen, my lawyer will be contacting each and every poster on this forum for mentioning his name.  I am seeking damages for the pain and suffering I went through while listening to Mr. Cage's "music."[:P]  Surely you're all liable.

Seriously though.  I understand that it's just a matter of taste but c'mon who listens to this stuff?  I don't know Mike, I guess I'm just deaf to whatever it is you're hearing in Cage's work.  Please don't say that I'm just a "layman" who doesn't understand Cage and someday, with a little education, I'll see the light.  That mentality won't work because I don't understand Lady Gaga either. 

Tom,

I apologize for taking your thread into the political realm but I felt compelled to respond to something Goran said in which I think he missed the point I was trying to make.  In reality I wasn't trying to make any political statements with my original post to this thread I was just trying to make an analogy.

Say Tom, is this really your thread?

@Tom23 said:

I was intrigued when a responder to the infamous now-defunct HZ post wondered why thematic scoring seems gets short shrift in today's film scores.  

Wasn't I the one who asked that question?  I asked that question to the composer (can't remember his name) who challanged Paul R.

Well, it doesn't really matter I guess.  Again, my apologies for taking the thread in a completely different direction.  

It's not off topic after all. "John Cage" is both the most comprehensive and concise answer to the thread's question!

@Tom23 said:

I was intrigued when a responder to the infamous now-defunct HZ post wondered why thematic scoring seems gets short shrift in today's film scores.  

Wasn't I the one who asked that question?  I asked that question to the composer (can't remember his name) who challanged Paul R.

Well, it doesn't really matter I guess.  Again, my apologies for taking the thread in a completely different direction.  

Hi,

Here are a few links to some John Cage pieces I like and find very accessible. Check it out and let me know what you like/dislike about it.

Oh, they are "accessible" works by John Cage.     That is important, isn't it?  Because we - being not on the higher academic level that you occupy -  need "accessible" works.  The assumed arrogance in these mikezaz posts is disgusting.  He is NOT the superior of anyone here, o.k.?  So he should stop acting like it. 

I realized the reason why I was so disturbed by this otherwise trivial personage is that he brought back the mentality which I happliy thought vanished long ago -  of being at a university music department.  I was not a professor mind you, or a composition student, or even a music major.  I was just a french horn player who was in brass choir, orchestra, brass quintet, etc.  And then I took a few classes in orchestration.  I took a test for advanced harmony and that was it.  But at that university I ended up majoring in English.  So of course, that means I was a dysfunctional wretch who couldn't figure out what to do.  But the music department was a frightening collection of people who depressed, disturbed and enraged me and I realized later they were essentially people who couldn't work in music, and so went to the university. 

That is all you really need to know about academic music which is the world mikezaz represents beautifully.  It is basically people who don't succeed in music, and so "study" it and become professors or phonies who post long-winded statements on forums. 

The people who are actually successful musicians - not me of course because I am a total anachronism and neurotic and can neither function in pop music nor the phony-ass world of mikezaz and his professors - but the other musicians here, many of whom are brilliant, are actually working musicians whose food is provided for not by lecturing and acting arrogant and intelligent about music, but by doing it. 

So all of the attitude put out by this person means absolutely nothing here.  Because this is first and foremost a forum for working musicians and a successful commercial enterprise that is also highly artistic. 

I am sure he will have another rejoinder but he is becoming very boring with the limitations of his academically created brain.

 I'm sorry - I should have said his "academically formed and highly conventional brain."   I apologize for that lapse. 

 One other thing for the little monkey-see-monkey-do-student-professor-buttkisser mikezaz - don't profane the name of Herrmann with your filthy university-scum lips.  You - as a conventionally programmed academic drone - and John Cage - as a modernist phony who pulled a big joke on all of Europe and America for his entire life's work - are not worthy of existing on the same dimensional plane as Herrmann, a great composer whose every score I have studied for the last forty years - in contrast to John Cage your hero whose entire musical output no one with any self respect would even glance at.  He is absolutely representative of the nadir of modernism - art with no soul, life or sincerity that is foisted off on people as a cynical joke.

Ok, I'm gonna commit piece of mind suicide for a couple of weeks and get in this conversation. Only because it's in my everyday documentation also..... I've just almost completed my Book on the subject. Because I'm an old fart in this business. And I've tasted all the spices of sounds publicly and professionally in all of the styles of music. Not just one or two. Damn I'm tired. But still ticking. Therefore any one that curses at any other will get the shaft first. Meaning they lost their mind.

http://web.me.com/robsnob/Site/Blank.html

We seem to be in a time of change. Pun intended. Yes change also means money in the pocket. As well as real dimensional Political change. We have the first black president. This came after a long fight of educating the deprived class of people, who have been shunned since the beginning of time. I couldn't have posted this post in a million years prior to this event. So this is ground breaking in the Academia, Political, Humanitarian, Scientific, Artistic, Conscientious fields. The long battle of dissidence, abstractionism, minimalism, cool, purple, Blue, abstractionism, Voicings, Decorations, Impressionism, sweets ..The Heart ! The revolting generation of revolution has capitulated finally. This is in-deed groundbreaking, historical, and puts tears to any one's eyes. We're in the technological time period also. Revelations. To any young born in these day's must seem surreal. Because of all the nonsense being played out as this shift of dimension takes hold or place. The elderly have witnessed these events incrementally and are aware. Most are remaining quiet, but this field being a part of music. I'm opening up as well as william, Paul and some of the others, whom have many years of experience in this filed. I respect such artist as Chuck Close. Most likely the best American Artist. Yale graduate. Has surpassed Jackson pollack. He said, this generation of change's main purpose was to create trouble, for the sake of change. Close himself has a binary abstractionists, classicist method all in one. His pictures are abstract close up and portrait standing back. This is significant of our times and in need and appointing in in this generation. And in the filed of music, its confronting and mathematical also. The human brain. Very mysterious. But it has a significant role in music, Conscience, Math, Government, Religion, Geometry, Poetry ... The binary issue at the conscience of a human being. The preservation of the human race !... We as humans still do not understand this programing but are playing a part in it. This is all we can do, until someone figures out the human brain. Now, finally.. Music... It appears there's also two forms of music at hand. Classical & Abstractionism. Lets just say, abstractionism is really Jazz, because that's what it really is after being mastered or correctly educated and learned by someone experienced. One of these forms of music has been created with the church and as far as I can tell for 234 years. Which is Classical. Or just the rules of music actually. The other has just been completed in the span of the formation of the US. Just as the civil rights movement is completed. These are not coincidents. The creation of the Constitution at 1776 is not a coincidence to the creation of classical music at 1776. The birth of George Washington at 1732 and the birth of Joseph Haydn at 1732 is no coincidence. They installed a geometric system for mankind's preservation. To be a music master one have to experience and master both. As the great composers did. And the modern Composers are. Be it Herbie Hancock or Chick Corea. One without the other is significant of our times. The propulsion in revolting for the abstract was a must to complete the conformity of this cycle and fulfill the primary use of this system. Now that it's fulfilled and complete, one has to go back and look at it all. To see the truth. Therefore, Abstractionism without rhythm can be both. Classical and Jazz. If you're in experiencing mode, meaning just tasting the sounds to understand. There is no other way but for time to pass by before you really understand the taste of the sounds with public reaction to it, if you play professionally. Meaning, the old lady's fork flew mysteriously out of her hand, or the gentleman chocked on a piece of food as you struck an abstract chord. Or sight read an abstract piece of music without rhythm. Anyone whom have played hours on in professionally paces himself and does not sight read. The music has to be memorized for adequate results. And notation is essential for orchestrative musicians. Or to study and learn. A piece of music without notation, is nothing. Concert pianist memorize the difficult long pieces for best result. If you play all the time, then you memorize the piece anyway. thats the point I'm trying to make here. ( Although I loved the cello pieces by the young composer boasting for cages revolutionary statements, great example of within these times. And i love music. But Others are just public individualists. ). This is what you get from those that are in the tasting stage of period on the internet whom look for a way out of hard work. By reassuring each other for an escape out of tonality. And catching the remainding wind at the brink of an abstractionist movement's closings or completion.. Rhythmic abstractionism performed correctly. Jazz, where is it ? It's gone. A hundred channels of television and no where. Classical where is it ? Almost the same. Had not been for the Orchestrational halls. It also would be completely gone. Classical music, or tonal music is the only type of music that builds up. Jazz is songwriting. Classical is Composition. I was lost about that when i was young. All these new gadgets, sounds and revolutions confused me. And add the money factor to it ? And now professors loosing their tenure's unless they conform to money. That's why I developed a method that made jazz composition also. As well as Classical tonal Improvisation acceptable. This is starting to take hold. At first everyone said this is wrong. Professors and the likes. But now, you see classical improvisation everywhere. I was the first to implement this. And at the end of the day, they meet somewhere in between, a full coarse balanced meal and dessert being the cool or hot sweets to catch that energy burst of creation with at the end. Or a Grand Structure painted, garnished, decorated, designed correctly. And with a conscience.. Significant of the times we live in also.. !

.................................

I appreciate any other inputs in adding or educating me also in this continuos study of themes, tonality. And the binary preservation of the human race contribution by the Artists and music makers...

.................................

I hope your new book includes Goddamn  PARAGRAPHS!!!!!!!!!

Bring back the Council of Trent.

And torture!!!

You stop that cursing right now !   Stop cursing.   I mean it !  

Oh, the hell with it. I'm checking in a monastery first thing monday morning. 

@Lon said:

 monastery 

You said the magic word. Please use paragraphs. Thank you.

@mikezaz_27157 said:

Paul, I still want to know where I posted before and why you remember me. 

I was with a delegation of governors visiting an asylum for the hopelessly insane deep into Arkansas and we stumbled upon you and Trevor locked in a padded cell. You were both mumbling about the demise of homogenous v heterogenous music and how Hans Zimmer had perverted music in post 1985 movies.

While we were hugely impressed with your vocabulary it was felt it best to leave you there and after throwing you both some nuts, repaired to another part of the building.

heterogeneity

On a serious note, you're right. Paragraphing is ignored. I will be more conscientious here on. And on the other side of the coin,

 I is warking on my paregiraf. Look here uncle jed. Krik. I is spell it for you, krk, krik. 

Jethro

@William said:

Oh, they are "accessible" works by John Cage.     That is important, isn't it?  Because we - being not on the higher academic level that you occupy -  need "accessible" works.  The assumed arrogance in these mikezaz posts is disgusting.  He is NOT the superior of anyone here, o.k.?  So he should stop acting like it. 

I realized the reason why I was so disturbed by this otherwise trivial personage is that he brought back the mentality which I happliy thought vanished long ago -  of being at a university music department.  I was not a professor mind you, or a composition student, or even a music major.  I was just a french horn player who was in brass choir, orchestra, brass quintet, etc.  And then I took a few classes in orchestration.  I took a test for advanced harmony and that was it.  But at that university I ended up majoring in English.  So of course, that means I was a dysfunctional wretch who couldn't figure out what to do.  But the music department was a frightening collection of people who depressed, disturbed and enraged me and I realized later they were essentially people who couldn't work in music, and so went to the university. 

That is all you really need to know about academic music which is the world mikezaz represents beautifully.  It is basically people who don't succeed in music, and so "study" it and become professors or phonies who post long-winded statements on forums. 

The people who are actually successful musicians - not me of course because I am a total anachronism and neurotic and can neither function in pop music nor the phony-ass world of mikezaz and his professors - but the other musicians here, many of whom are brilliant, are actually working musicians whose food is provided for not by lecturing and acting arrogant and intelligent about music, but by doing it. 

So all of the attitude put out by this person means absolutely nothing here.  Because this is first and foremost a forum for working musicians and a successful commercial enterprise that is also highly artistic. 

I am sure he will have another rejoinder but he is becoming very boring with the limitations of his academically created brain.

Again I have no idea why you're so upset. Different pieces of music are more accessible than others (To use Beethoven as an example, I would say for instance that the 9th is more accessible than the Grosse Fugue), and these John Cage pieces are much more so than his other music.

When I'm recommending music to people who have had a bad experience with a composer in question, I don't immediately try to find the most complex and unfriendly pieces - I look for the ones that are the most fun to listen to and start there. These are often my favorite pieces as well, so it works out. That's all I meant by this post, but apparently you are determined to read quite a bit more into it, which seems to be a persistent problem in this thread. 

I'll post the links again because I do think it's important that people hear them (there aren't enough links to music in this thread in general, just words). I am again not a disciple of John Cage - these are some of the the only works of his that I really love: 

@William said:

 One other thing for the little monkey-see-monkey-do-student-professor-buttkisser mikezaz - don't profane the name of Herrmann with your filthy university-scum lips.  You - as a conventionally programmed academic drone - and John Cage - as a modernist phony who pulled a big joke on all of Europe and America for his entire life's work - are not worthy of existing on the same dimensional plane as Herrmann, a great composer whose every score I have studied for the last forty years - in contrast to John Cage your hero whose entire musical output no one with any self respect would even glance at.  He is absolutely representative of the nadir of modernism - art with no soul, life or sincerity that is foisted off on people as a cynical joke.

1) I don't think Herrmann would respect your hero worship for a second. Treat him like a human being, anyone can talk about him (this is where you can again accuse me of hero worship of John Cage, except, if you go back in this thread, you'll find I've done no such thing ever, and in fact disagree with a lot of his views and dislike a lot of his music). 

2) Through my school I was able to study several original Herrmann manuscripts. It was pretty cool. School is pretty cool, so maybe chill out a little bit and stop strawmanning me so much? 

@mikezaz_27157 said:

Paul, I still want to know where I posted before and why you remember me. 

I was with a delegation of governors visiting an asylum for the hopelessly insane deep into Arkansas and we stumbled upon you and Trevor locked in a padded cell. You were both mumbling about the demise of homogenous v heterogenous music and how Hans Zimmer had perverted music in post 1985 movies.

While we were hugely impressed with your vocabulary it was felt it best to leave you there and after throwing you both some nuts, repaired to another part of the building.

heterogeneity

Paul, I absolutely love your posts. They are like reading a surrealist novel. Please keep them coming. 

Hi Lon, I did the best to follow your difficult post. My reponses to it are

1) Cage isn't really a revolutionary any more, is he? His ideas after all are pretty stale and, like most of modernism, now toothless and abandoned. 

2) Thanks, I'm glad you liked my piece! 

3) But no, I am not at all "boasting for cage revolutionary statements." I disagree with a lot of Cage, there's not a lot of his music that I like, and as I've mentioned before, the only pieces I love are the "Sonatas and Interludes For Prepared Piano." This isn't a particularly uncommon opinion to have these days - most of my friends share it, as does Richard Taruskin, who wrote a great article on Cage which I recommend, if you want to know exactly why his ideas are mostly harmless these days. 

@Dietz said:

Dear Forum Members,

please don't make me close yet another thread. Stick to a friendly tone, and stay on topic. Thanks!

Threads actually get closed here?  Hard to believe when you see all the throwing of monkey feces...