never mind

You will probably find me silly then, but I like his work... :-)

In my opinion the Tudors score works perfectly with the series and they are a joy to listen to as a standalone.

Well Errikos, if "vile, uninspired, ineffective, meritricious, supremely incompetent" "only begin to" articulate your feelings towards the current scoring state of affairs, I imagine you've got quite an invective grab bag for when you really get rolling.

Trevor, you must understand that this was not, unlike your particular brand of posting, a personal attack in anyway on you. Congratulations Trevor on EVEN getting the gig. I fully understand that a producer may well say to you - let's sound like this or that - because it's a tried and tested method.

But Trevor, you surely can't have such little self esteem and low confidence in your ability to write music that you feel it necessary to single out an insignificant musician on a forum, such as myself.

I play Baroque harpsichord music that I studied at The Royal College of Music back in 1970. Would you like to hear me play some? Really Trevor, do try to calm down.

 What blows me away.. and I think Trevor would agree... is that people forget that THIS IS A BUSINESS!!!!  You have to do what sells... and what the director wants!

You don't see stores selling the same clothes from back in the 1850's.  Why? because things evolve... things change.  Regardless of whether you like it or not. 

Face it... every movie does not require the "Star Wars" soundtrack. And just as is everything else in pop culture... stay with the times or fail to be relevant.  Take for example Pop radio as we know it. I don't hear Jimmy Hendricks being played on the top 40 anymore.  Even though he is one of the greatest guitar players of all time in the sense of pioneering. 

People have the right to be opinionated, but sometimes it is excessive as with this thread IMO.  Remember, this is a business. In business, the number one goal is to turn a profit.  In order to do so...  Get over it and get with the times!! :)

All said in love!

@Another User said:

A new TV series written by a fucking hack

Paul, you made it personal. Trevor has every right to rip you to shreds. You crossed a line.

Expect that these forums are visited by all the guys that you think you are better than. Now, what if you were in a room with all of us -- would your language change if we were sitting opposite you at a conference table? If not, then you deserve to get whatever is coming your way.

Trevor -- just tell Paul to fuck off and please stay around -- we need more working pros hanging out to make our tools better.

I fully agree with Jeremy.

The music of Trevor deserves far better than this...

@Tom23 said:

Well Errikos, if "vile, uninspired, ineffective, meritricious, supremely incompetent" "only begin to" articulate your feelings towards the current scoring state of affairs, I imagine you've got quite an invective grab bag for when you really get rolling.

Well Tom, you're right, it's "don't get me started" time! That is after having followed this forum for something like five years now (even if I joined late), having endured, enjoyed, or just perused indifferently over literally countless verbal duels fought here with such vehemence it made me smile or laugh out loud so many times with the great humour or bile that was thrown around.

One of the most enjoyable - and very well informed - posters here over the years has been PaulR; and no matter how heated the discussion became, he never backed down, he was even condescending and dismissive when after many efforts his well articulated points had failed to make an impression, or some people just insisted on disagreeing with him without actually making a cogent argument or being half as informed as he was on the subject.

SO  I  C A N N O T  B E L I E V E  I T that he's just squirming away from this guy's challenge, "I just play the harpsichord, etc..". That is just B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T Paul!! Why can't you repeat to this guy's face that HE IS a fucking hack after all!! Are you feeling sorry that you might hurt his feelings? He's a professional, and seasoned to rejection as even Goldsmith had to swallow among many others. What's this "I respect you get the gigs" or words to that effect shite? Are we wasting our time reading your posts when time permits?! Tell it like it is! You don't have to post music in comparison to make a judgement on someone's work, you could easily be an educated soundtrack lover. I wonder what William has to say on the matter...

As far as Trevor Morris is concerned, he has not addressed me, but I'm quite sure he would after this post, so I take the liberty to say a few things in advance:

You sir, are someone that is actually working on A-grade contracts so you have the advantage in that regard over every one of us here I would imagine. I could sit and listen to you for hours about matters concerning the industry. You could instruct me forever about contracts, deals, royalties, rates, studio gear, ways of dealing with pressure, with difficult directors/producers, endless tips on working in a proper sound stage with proper orchestras.... In short, there is no discernible limit to what I could learn from you except in one area...

I have no idea what kind of music you write other than the herein posted YouTube track (unless half of what Hans has written is really yours). If you ask me to have an opinion of you as a composer from that particular track alone, then please say no more... Don't challenge people on this forum musically. I don't know whether you are conscious of this, but you represent the worst of what film music has become; a boundless oceanic tirade of uninspired clichés, written mostly by people who know very-very little about the art of symphonic writing, and that have a two-shades emotional range and technical palette. Even the teams of orchestrators cannot save this "music" (sic), since even the best of them have to have a modicum of interesting or suggestive material to begin with (save for re-writing it themselves...). 

I respect the fact that you stand firm behind your product, but it is a misguided allegiance... Some people on this forum can actually teach you a lot about Music - including PaulR! - if you could just dismount from your high-I work in the industry-horse. Lady Gaga also makes more money than us and is known in the industry, that means ..., well you know what it means. As far as posting something here for your appreciation, there is no way I would let you take a track of mine and parade it around the Internet - I choose the time and the place for that, not anybody else. However, you must be well-off enough by now. The next trip to Greece you take for holidays, let me know, I will more than happily exchange solid and invaluable composition lessons for your insights and experience in the Real World of soundtrack music professionals.

In earnest,

E.

P.S. @brad_11465: You're right, it is a business and you have to do what the bosses want; however my contention is that we are bulldozed over by people who DON"T have a choice and just bend naturally over to the brass' orders. They physically COULD NOT write any better if asked/allowed. The meaningless drones, the endless arpeggiator patterns, the non-themes, etc. that is ALL they can do! They would fold like the sorriest poker hand if more was demanded of them. They should nightly thank their lucky stars for being in any demand whatsoever, inexplicable as it is.

Really, E.  Your critiques are as bombastic as any of the film scores you so despise.

If I heard one short piece of your writing, didn't like it on my first and only listen, then labelled you as "highly uninspired," would that be a fair accusation?  I doubt it very much.

Study hard, write from the heart and keep trying to get better.  Hans, Trevor and the like all seem well able to take care of themselves.

All Best,  Tom

PaulR has stuck up for me in the past, because of my diligent love and understanding of real music. And I respect him for that. And he has run me off also because of the degenerates that have latched on to me and continue to bully the industry for their own personal gain. And I respect him for that also.

Everyone is right on this forum, Yes, lots of kids get used by others and so forth, ( rock & roll and all that Jazz ). But some have money, while some have music and a piece of mind...                 " To have something, you have to give up everything ". " Franz liszt "

 Mozart was writing his last piece of music ( Lacramosa ) for the purpose of someone else's name to go on it. Just so he could eat. 

@Tom23 said:

Really, E.  etc.

Tom, if posts here were read a little more thoroughly misunderstandings would be fewer; sadly my posts can be long and who has the time for more than a cursory read... So, I can judge Hans and anyone at that level, as I've heard too many samples of their work to know what they do. As far as T.M. is concerned, I admit that it isn't the best of things to find some unknown is cursing at you and your music so his post is well expected. When one puts out his soul for the public to masticate on, one must be strong for the public can be silly in its praise, but also callous in its dismissal; hard for a composer...

I did however say IF I am asked to judge T.M.'s compositional strengths from that snippet alone, then I would have to say etc. etc.. I admitted I don't know any other work of his to formulate a final standpoint in this respect. Be that as it may, I am experienced enough to guess (and it is a guess) at what I should generally expect from someone after a minute of their stuff - especially if it is a title track. And of course as strong and "bombastic" as it is, it remains my personal judgement, not a state verdict. Personally, if I was working at that level of the industry and someone vilified me on a forum such as this, I'd just laugh and show my friends; but - again - that is what I would do, everyone's different (except the vast majority of composers working in Hollywood today and the myriads of hordes that try to emulate them [;)])

All the best.

@brad_11465 said:

... stay with the times or fail to be relevant

I think it is always good to explore new things, and Zimmer et al have added to the musical palette with a blending of orchestral, electronic and sound design. On the other hand, I think the 'Zimmer style' in question (and I have no knowledge to suggest he's incapable of any other kind of writing)  fits a particular type of project - and if that kind of project is commercially successful then studios will want to replicate it - and they'll want what we are describing as a  'Zimmer style' score to go with theirs. From a commercial perspective - 'if it ain't broke...'

I have yet to see any of 'Pillars of the Earth' - but if it is along the lines of similar recent productions I can see why a Zimmer 'King Arthur' treatment would be called for. If the production style were more like I Claudius then maybe not.

Where I'm not convinced is that a classical pastiche would not be appropriate for a new Jane Austen adaptation just because it isn't 'with the times' or that the next Austin Powers shouldn't pastiche the film scores of the '60s. I think it is healthy for a composer to have a pallete which incorporates contrapuntal legato divisi string writing as well as scraping razor blades along piano wires and the use of the arpeggiator. My biggest concern is that a love of the current 'electronically assisted' writing techniques produces a generation of media composers who never get around to acquiring the more traditional skills - which you never know, may come in handy in the future (who'd have thought flares would have ever come back into fashion [:O] ?

The strange irony for me is that before this thread (which for those of us free from personal attack has had its entertaining contributions!) I didn't even know arpeggiators existed (that's how old school I am [;)] ) and have just acquired one (VST) to add to Cubase to play with. For me of course it's only likely to get used if I'm asked to write a techno track and have no idea what I'm doing - but it's always cool to play with a new toy. While I was looking for information I stumbled upon another thread which featured the traditional 'which is best, VSL / LASS / EWHS' debate. One school of thought expressed was that if you wanted to programme a Mozart symphony - you'd need VSL, the other two would be useless! Ever since I've been imagining some guy saying 'Karl Bohm's interpretation is so lame, and those Vienna Philharmonic guys are really unrealistic - I'll load up my new VI Pro and show 'em how it's done!

I am therefore consoling myself that in this community - being the guy who wishes John Williams had scored all the Harry Potter films but being quite content Hans Zimmer scored POTC and Da Vinci Code puts me somewhere in the middle [A]

Actually Erik ( and thanks btw, but really no need) I am frightened in many ways to hurt people's feelings, especially musicians who generally have extremely low self esteem. A client of mine ( a psychiatrist) once said to me " people with a very low self esteem and a low IQ to match, usually wind up harming others, while people with very low self esteem and a high IQ wind up harming themselves." So yes - I don't like personal attacks on people and you will not see a personal attack on Hans from me at any time. I admire the way he's made that style work for him commercially. Like I said before, the films are a different thing all together. If you can make money from whatever you do AFAIC that's great.

I did not mean Trevor was a hack writer. That's a misinterpretation. I meant the writer of the book. Although  this thread was supposedly about the homogenous sound of filmscoring via the HZ school of composition. And if that piece FOR EXAMPLE is not of that school, then I obviously know phuque all about it.

Incidentally David, my aunt edited the script for I Claudius.  [:-*]

Jeremey Roberts - for a New Yorker you a fucking a a s s h o le and should know better. I could play, compose better than you any day - and have a wank at the same time. So stop talking shyte. If I wanted to be "ripped apart" I would simply talk to a classically trained musician. Who gives a shyte that you and others write music to moving pictures. You think that makes you somehow special in the world of trained musicians. Don't be twat all your life - take a day off son.

Good evening.

@brad_11465 said:

Remember, this is a business. In business, the number one goal is to turn a profit.  In order to do so...  Get over it and get with the times!! 😊

Guess what music also is... AN ART.    Remember that?  Why you got into music in the first place?  This post remind me of "hot shots" in Hollywood talking in a supposedly harshly truthful way about moviemaking, and ridiculing weirdo film directors who think of it as an art.  I always have this question when I hear those people - if all you care about is money and business, then why in the hell are you in moveimaking instad of the restaurant business, hotels,  real estate, whatever.  It is a terrible way to make money.  The same is true of music.  Why in the hell does anyone go into music?  TO MAKE MONEY?  You are a fucking moron if that is your reason.  

When I created this thread I was not trying to attack people personally - I was criticizing MUSIC.  Do I have the right to do that?   I think about music all the time.  I try to determine what is good and what is bad.  So I post something asking why is this Zimmer guy so incredbily successful making 6 figures for four bar phrases and I JUST FINISHED 800 BARS OF A SYMPHONY AND MADE NOTHING!!  And this guy comes on  saying "Hey, it's a business! Get with the times!"  That is disgusting. 

BTW Paul R is a very good composer and actually quite modest about it. His demos are right here on this site for that bigshot guy who iwas trashing him.  But I'm sure he is too important to listen. He just wants to come on here flaming as soon as somebody he considers his inferior actually DARES to criticize him.  If he is so great why the hell can't he TAKE IT LIKE  A MAN? 

BTW Trevor and Hans,  you have my permission to listen to any of my music any time you wish.   I can take your criticism, anytime, anywhere.  In fact, it would make me feel REAL GOOD if you trash me.  Go ahead, make my day.... [:@]

Errikos - awesome posts!  I an envious. 

WOW!  This thread is like the immortal maniac in slasher movies that just keeps coming back again and again.  William, I think you may have created a Frankenstein here.

Trevor, if you're still reading these posts, let me ask you something.  Why is it that thematic scoring in the industry today is so unpopular?  Perhaps you disagree and maybe, as I think Vibrato pointed out, I'm living in the past but the way I see it, the score should be like a character in the story.  It should have a life and not just evoke the necesary cookie cutter emotions from the audience.  As I said before, composers are not hired per se they are casted just like the actors.  What do you think of some of your peers in this business like John Williams, Danny Elfman, or James Horner?  Are they good "actors?"  To be honest, I'm not familiar with your work and for all I know you could be quite the film scoring erudite so I ask my questions with sincerity and I don't mean any disrespect toward you, in fact I'm rather thrilled that you posted.  I'm just a bit disapointed with the way the industry is going.  But I guess if I were in your shoes and the director, who is paying me muchos dollaros, tells me to put on a Pilsbury Doughboy custom while I'm conducting the orchestra, well, "nothing says lov'n like something from the oven."

I think the main complaint from posters like Paul R. William and especially Errikos is that there are too many uneducated, untalented, uninspiring and just plain lazy composers out there who are gumming up the works preventing more passionate and deserving composers from earning a living at this game.  This business is like any other art form it's about 10% talent/knowledge 10% who you know and 80% luck.  We work so hard on that talent/knowledge portion not realizing that it's just 10% of the way there.  This isn't an exact science where the more you know the more successful you are.

Regarding Paul R. He has posted his music on this forum before and I can vouch for him.  He's a very talented composer and a fine keyboard player.  However, he probably could have been a bit more diplomatic when sharing his opinions of somebody else's music.  I appreciate your passion but try some Constructive criticism next time Paul.         

@William said:

Errikos - awesome posts!    

@Another User said:

BTW Trevor and Hans,  you have my permission to listen to any of my music any time you wish

Oh I am sure that they will be doing this sometime soon... LOL!!

@William said:

BTW Trevor and Hans,  you have my permission to listen to any of my music any time you wish

Oh I am sure that they will be doing this sometime soon... LOL!!

HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF IRONY?  I am of course aware they won't be listening,  They don't give a shit.  And so I am being just a wee bit ironic there. 

And don't tell me stuff about how art is business, o.k.?  As a means of excusing COMPROMISE OF EVERY ARTISTIC PRINCIPLE AND SELLING YOUR SOUL TO THE DEVIL FOR A BUCK.

O.K.?  Don;t give me that shit becuase I am sick of hearing it. 

Now for my prediction: I will be accused of being an "elitist" or a snob who is against good hard-working composers who make a living with what they do.  No, I am not against them at all.  Because many of them do GOOD MUSIC while they make money.  Many, but not all, and definitely not the highest paid of them today.

And if you don't like my criticisms which are honest and sincere whether you agree or not - then go become a tyrannical dictator somewhere where you can tell everyone what to think.  I"ll join the underground.

@William said:

How paranoid can you get?  You are not a moron obviously.  I did not mean you!

REALLY??  Dude... don't be all bashfull now that I called you out! You come on here flaming people, and then act like you never said it.  IT'S IN BLACK AND WHITE!!!!!  You said "Why in the hell does anyone go into music?  TO MAKE MONEY?  You are a fucking moron if that is your reason."  You quoted me... and used everything I said as an example... That has nothing to do with being paranoid. 

Yes I am in this business, to make money...  yes you are talking about me and anyone else who recieves money for their art.  It is not a hobby for me, or a side venture.  So at this point, unless I decide to launch a solo-carreer as a rock star and express my political and moral views on everyone just to be a voice for my art, I do this strictly for money.  And hope to do so for a loooooooong time!

So, don't come on here flame someone, and then back peddle.  Honestly... that's even more insulting. If you mean something different... say it the first time.  I read it.  and have re-read it. It says the exact same thing.

I was honestly amused the first time I posted on this thread, because of how upset people get over Hans Zimmers music.  I still am.  I was only stating a fact, which you confirmed, about that music IS a business. I have been quoted a couple of times by others in this thread... and never did they say "f**king moron" after they quoted me.  I'm just saying!

I leave you with a very early "Merry Christmas to you all!"[A]

Brad